[quote=Magic Magnum] Just swap the places you use MRA and Feminism and it would be just as true. :/ A lot of MRA is just arguing against feminist, true. But a lot of feminism is also just arguing MRA. [/quote] That's not true. Feminism stands alone, whether or not MRAs are around to bitch about. The MRM is literally a counter movement to feminism. It's equivalent to "allies" demanding recognition in the LGBTAQ+ community. Or white people claiming they're oppressed because minorities are finally being given equal opportunities. It's literally, "this isn't about me for once so I'm going to throw a tantrum." On top of that, feminism continues to push for women's rights. Men have been assaulted, murdered, raped, and denied opportunities (see Boy Scouts, Ferguson, prisons, gay rights) by other men but instead of talking about this, MRAs continue to whine about how feminism is hurting straight white men. The MRM insists too much on discussing how women are oppressing men when it's men oppressing men. I've never ONCE seen these issues breached by a MRA unless it was to somehow twist the finger back at feminism. [quote=Magic Magnum] And note I say this as someone who when I first got involved in these issues regarded myself as a Feminist for a while. But then after a few years of noticing all the flaws with feminism, I switched to MRA briefly in an attempt to try to counteract the harm that third wave feminism is causing. But very soon after deciding that was a redundant and backwards way of thinking about and tackling the issue I decided to switch to becoming a Gender Egalitarian. [/quote] My POV of view comes from being resistant to both sides at first. The MRM has continued to push me away, but feminism has grown to make more and more sense to me especially as I continue with my education in the academic and professional world. I've already talked about my experience in anthropology with you, and one of the things we discuss in cultural anthropology is womens' rights, so my experience goes beyond googling statistics and arguing on the internet. (The MRM isn't even worth mentioning in academia on top of this.) Modern feminism does have a lot of issues, but a lot of those issues are found primarily with what I refer to as "white feminism" in which, yeah, a lot of white feminists are toxic and apathetic toward issues that affect all women (trans, queer, minority, etc). And I'm not going to discuss what we've "seen" from both sides or whatever nor am I going to discuss what you've seen. You're going to find a mix of extremism, moderation, hate, and tolerance no matter where you are and the mix will be different depending on who you talk to. To make my point, you earlier said that MRAs are typically more "civil," though most of my personal experience would counter that. To reiterate my overall point, the MRM is men expressing issues with how men are treated. Men are treated in these ways primarily by other men. But feminism becomes the scapegoat even though it already has, is, and continues to take a stand against these exact issues. Example: the MRM blames feminism for false rape accusations because they think women use it to gain power over men. However, feminism takes just as much issue with false rape accusations because they affect how seriously rape victims are taken. Feminism stands by women. The MRM blames feminism instead of standing by men. I feel ridiculous even discussing the MRM, to be honest, so I'll try to refrain from posting more. (Though I tried really, really hard not to post that meme to begin with, so lol.)