[quote=@Vilageidiotx] It sounds like Nazi-accusation because we already do the other things for the most part. We don't have an open border policy, there is actually a pretty hefty system in place for flow-stemming (Cit: Born in East L.A. Dir. Cheech Marin). Which is why people suspect police-state ideas when this gets bandied about: because the plans are always suspiciously vague, or involve ideas that recall police-state imagery like walls and shit. And I'd actually be pretty cool with mandatory English classes. I feel we might have tried that before though... but I can't be certain. Because here is the thing about mandatory: for something this huge, it suggests a probationary structure in place that can locate and track the immigrants and make sure they take their classes. But if we actually had a structure of that magnitude in place, we wouldn't have an immigration issue. It reminds me way back when I was doing work study in college in the computer lab of a subsidized housing project. They wanted to do mandatory computer classes, so they just sort of called them mandatory for anybody who wanted to use the computers and sent out the fliers. Nobody showed. So I suggested they give out free bus passes to anybody that shows up. And that worked, they had a decent handful come in. You can't just call something required. Gotta incentivize. Make sure English language classes are fucking easy to get into. Free classes in community colleges, maybe even government even foots the bill for bus rides to and from community colleges. That sort of thing. Hell, maybe pay people to take the classes. Whatever gets them in the door. It sounds expensive, but it'd be cheaper to do it that way then to create a hit-and-miss probationary system to handle it. [/quote] Yah, you could go with the carrot method, and bribe them into doing it. Or you could use the stick, and say "you must attend and pass these classes, or you will not be granted citizenship/residence/landed-status/etc, and you will have to continue hoping your visa can be renewed on time". Of course, this would necessitate enforcement. The United States already has laws and punishments for visa overstays, but they're not regularly enforced. To quote Ann Coulter, "We already have an immigration task-force, JUST LET I.C.E. DO THEIR JOB". [quote] I honestly don't think the cheap labor lobby is really the reason it isn't being handled. That sounds a whole lot like a political line of its own (remember, Trump is a political snake-oil salesman too, don't drink the election-time kool-aide). Because the cheap labor being exploited is primarily being exploited by local contractors and shit like that. They aren't they heavy hitters economically speaking, because immigrants mostly get stuck with unskilled labor, which is already easy to exploit as it is. You don't need illegal immigrants to keep Wal-Mart wages poor. When I think of all the busts I have ever heard about personally, it has always been shit like tree farms and construction sites. [/quote] Hold the phone. Why don't you need illegal immigrants to keep Walmart wages poor? Surely, if you vastly reduce the supply of low-skill workers, and the demand is still there (Walmart being America's biggest sole employer), they'll have to do something to entice people to come work for them. When there's a limited supply of workers, and an excess of employers, the employers have to start offering more to beat out their competition, or risk being understaffed and going out of business. How did agriculture, and other low-skill labour ever function, before you were able to bring in cheap Mexicans to do it? Oh yah! It used to be that teenagers and young adults would do it, which is coincidentally the most under-employed group in the country now, more so than ever in American history (possibly excluding the great depression). [quote] If you want to handle the exploitative part, you gotta ask who you go after: the exploited, or the exploiters? There are a whole lot of ways to do this. Now, if I were made dictator of the United States and got to just decide, I'd give free citizenship to any illegal immigrant who could show his boss was breaking labor laws (beside just hiring an illegal I guess), and then the person or persons found guilty of the exploitation would get life in prison and all their property confiscated automatically. That's impractical for several legal reasons too, albeit it is far more practical than the alternatives. Still, more symbolic of where my political tendencies lay. So yes, it's difficult to fix, and anybody telling you otherwise is selling something. [/quote] If you want to handle the exploitation, first start enforcing the law. There are entire cities, occupied exclusively by tens of thousands of illegal immigrants each (if not more). These cities are known to the police, but nothing is done. When a local company needs new workers, they can just swing by one of these "sanctuary cities", and pick up two dozen willing workers. Step one is build the wall, to shut off the flow of immigrants. Step two is send the illegals back over the wall, creating a vacuum of low-skill employees. Step three is shutting down the guest-worker program, increasing the vacuum. Step four is simply waiting for the illegal immigrants that are already employed to integrate into society. Before you know it, there aren't any more easily exploitable non-English-speaking foreign workers, and their wages will start rising already, as more and more employers find themselves short on cheap labour, and are forced to pay more to bring them over. [quote] Is that like her line or something? "Hillary Clinton supports good tamales?" Because if liking burritos makes me a Blue Dog, then god help me i'm a Blue Dog. And if Hillary Clinton wants to pay me to like burritos, then fuck it, I'll sell out. One thing I like better than burritos is paychecks. (seriously hillary, pm me pls. sorry i voted for bernie.) [/quote] When we're talking about rising poverty levels, record unemployment, income inequality, human exploitation with conditions akin to slavery, I couldn't give a shit about your ability to get a tasty novelty food category, and no one else who takes this situation seriously should either. If the livelihood of your fellow man, and the suffering of your neighbour to the south, is worth less than a good burrito... Well I just hope you're in the minority. I mention Hillary Clinton, because the pro-immigration/amnesty side of this discussion always brings up food as the example of "cultural enrichment", as though this doesn't pale in comparison to real issues. It's such a privileged position to speak from, where your life and livelihood is secure enough that your only concern is getting more food variety. [quote] We going to start taking advice from [i]Mexico[/i] on how to govern a country? Also, how much wall are they going to build when they don't even have a handle on half their border with Guatemala? I'd think being able to govern more than half of your country would take priority to building a wall in the middle of the rainforest. Shit, theirs sounds like a much worse idea than ours. Trump's is just a waste of money to make us look bad, the Mexican one is completely nonsensical. [/quote] Yes yes, I'm not saying they're going to do a good job. I'm just noting that the concept of a border wall is far from unprecedented (Israel is another great example), and that it's a bit ironic that Mexicans are complaining about a wall, when they themselves are building a wall. [quote] Well no, but I've also not had those experiences in the Mexican parts of any of the places I live either (gotta go down there to get the real chorizo). I have no doubt that East LA is a fucking nightmare, but not every Hispanic neighborhood looks like that automatically. If I want to get accosted about hard drugs, I don't even have to go downtown, there is a good white trash meth-head neighborhood just a mile from here. The sort you don't pull into driveways because some nervous fuck might hop out of his trailer with a shot gun to protect his lab. Which is not to disparage my own people, but rather to point out that my experiences do not mesh with this particular "The Immigrants did it" line of easy-fixism. Shit's not that simple. I believe Trump can fix the immigration problem just as much as I believe Hillary Clinton can fix poverty. [/quote] Yes, crime springs up from poverty, even in our own culture, but America isn't doing itself any favours by importing millions of dirt-poor people, with no education or prospects, who's culture (language included, of course) conflicts with the local culture. I'd like to note that the influx of Mexican labour driving the wages down, and sucking welfare money out of the system, sure isn't doing the poor any favours, and may even be contributing to the conditions that result in white ghettos. Also, where are these locals getting their hard drugs from in the first place? Ten bucks says it's from Mexico. Of course, everything is a matter of scales and degrees, but the more socio-economical-cultural division we have, the more likely we are to get these unlivable, inhospitable sections of our own country.