goddammit you guys made this thread a motherfucker to organize the quotes for [quote=@Buddha] W-which he did. https://twitter.com/JonTronShow/status/845038284967493638 I don't get your point here. And politics, by nature, are not based in disrespecting your opponent views. Respect =/= liking people. Sorry, but you're missing the point here. [/quote] The question was, if I recall, why there wasn't an equal backlash for the behavior of the developers toward him as there was for his original comments? I'm saying that the reason the developers behavior didn't create a backlash was that it was a personal issue between JonTron and them, whereas the other was about JonTron's political opinions, which is a public matter by default, since he made his opinions public and the opinions are about how the public should be ran. What happens between JonTron and those developers is not especially relevant on a large scale. [quote=@mdk] Setting the bar at "Systemic genocide" is pretty blaise. Consider: after seeing a headline "JonTron's Possibly Racist Views," are you (a) more likely or (b) less likely to watch JonTron's videos? If a candidate for office is accused of racism for 14 months, do you think that candidate is (a) more likely or (b) less likely to be elected, regardless of policy? If [i]half the nation is thrown into a basket of deplorables, your racists, your homophobes, your misogynists,[/i] how likely is it that afterwards the two sides of the argument are going to be able to come together? And yeah, we're talking about race in this thread because title, but this goes way beyond all that. North Carolina is losing hundreds of millions of dollars for the crime of having the same bathrooms as last year. Social bullying is the absolute norm. That's a very bad thing. The fact that it hasn't escalated to actual SYSTEMIC violence, only scattered POCKETS of violence, does not make that okay. [/quote] It's only blaise if we consider these (racism not being taboo vs racism as an overused taboo) separate issues. I think it is a sliding scale, personally, where on one end (racism not being taboo) we have systematic violence, and on the other (racism as an overused taboo) we have stupid shit happening in public but being systematically contained. What I am afraid of is this fight currently taking place against the tabooification of racism is going to recreate systematic racism that right now is at least somewhat (though not completely) tamed. I don't mean to be black and white about it, I understand there is a grey area ideal that we would all prefer everything to sit at. But society is a complex motherfucker, and doesn't like to stay completely balanced. So for me I'm afraid we'll trade the issue of people not watching JonTron videos for increased police violence against minorities. As for your references in particular A: Trump was elected. The race taboo didn't end his chances. B: The basket of deplorables was, in my opinion, a tactical error. Deploying it hurt her. I will note the American left has been shit on for years by the right, so it's silly to pretend that conservatives are victims of a unilateral smear campaign. It takes two to tango. Also, why is it now "Social bullying" to shop with your dollar, so to speak? I do not see the North Carolina situation as bullying at all and I think it is hyperbolic to suggest it. Witholding potential funds is a completely civil and peaceful way for opponents of NC's law to respond. [quote=@The Spectre] Of course, I agree with you that racism does also require explicit violence. However, I do believe in giving people a second chance. Like if a white supremacist changes his entire viewpoint and realize that he has done wrong, then I would give him a chance to prove it. We should be giving them and others a chance rather than just assume that they will change. It is like when people are saying 'punch a nazi.' What if that Nazi has completely changed? Would you try to forgive him or punish him anyway because of his past. Of course, I am getting off topic (again). [/quote] I didn't say otherwise. I just said JonTron is a racist, I didn't say he is condemned to hell or some shit. If he stops being a racist, then he is no longer a racist. If a Nazi has completely changed, he is no longer a Nazi. But if a Nazi is running around town saying "Gas the kikes" or some shit, then punching him for his current nazi-ing out is justified. Also, I don't think JonTron is a Nazi. He just has dumb opinions that happen to be racist. I'm not lumping him in with Hitler. [quote=@The Spectre] Well, post-modernism affects everyone, including the conservatives and the communists. The idea that it isn't cool to call it racism, it's the idea that you must be a racist if you do nothing. Left-leaning political ideas are more popular and common than right-leaning ideas. Not saying that the right does not exist because it does. Like how a Tumblr post that talks about feminism gets tens of thousands of likes and reblogs while a post about pro-gun gets only a few hundred to a thousand likes and reblogs. And I am wondering if you think that I am a part of the right wing movement? Just curious. [/quote] Tumblr isn't exactly the most balanced sample. Both political groups exist in some relative balance in the general population. I mean, Trump got elected. That doesn't exactly support an "Everybody except a few people are leftists" argument. Also, I never said someone is racist if they do nothing. I am sure some people think otherwise, but I disagree with them. If JonTron only said "I don't do anything about racism" I wouldn't think he was a racist. And I do have to ask, and this is a question for everybody, is there post-modern communists? I actually don't know. I don't think post-modernism is very compatible with dialectical thought. I was thinking more those leftists who say "There is no culture" or some silly shit like that when I said "Post modernism is a edgy left thing." [quote=@The Spectre] The Know-Nothing party was mainly anti-Catholic and they were scared because they truly believed that the Catholics were limited liberties and freedom back in Europe. I do not understand how the Know-Nothing party fits into the modern day and that JonTron is one. Is it because of nativism or populist is highly present in the party? Care to explain? [/quote] Because that was who they were faced with at the time. Germans and Irish immigrants came over in large numbers, both from the Catholic portions of those countries for the most part, and that created tensions. Working folk didn't like competing for wages with poor immigrants, and middle class people were afraid of the cultural and religious differences. Honestly, reading the complaints the know-nothings had about immigrants is sooo fucking similar to the Trump movement that it's kinda fun to read. I think this is largely because all arguments about immigration are going to be founded on the same basic ideas. [quote=@SleepingSilence] [url=http://thefederalist.com/2017/03/21/research-problems-unravel-liberal-narrative-alleging-everyone-racist/]Hmm...[/url] Well, reading most of this discussion. It basically boils down to everyone is racist, but if that's true...why is merely saying it so damning and condemning of a man's/woman's character if literally everyone on earth is racist? How can it hold such power, if it's such a vague and almost pointless thing to say? Since from birth, you're just born that way...It's not just prejudice or ignorance, which are words that already exists. No, it's believing that a particular race is superior to another. The definition on google. I just really don't hold that belief...at all. [/quote] Okay, first and foremost lets be honest about that source. Punditry is punditry. It'd be like be posting articles from the Jacobin. Those are meant for ideological examination, not for public debate. What I am trying to say with "everyone is racist" is that racism isn't something only Nazis do, but it is more like what [@Buddha] has got at a few times, that tribalistic thinking is sort of innate, and it is part of the human condition that we are supposed to rise above it. We are never perfect, and everyone occasionally slips. At the same time, there are levels. JonTron did more then just slip. He didn't go full Nazi, but none the same he did double down on some tribalistic bullshit. This thread to me has thus far been two basic arguments that weave around each other and into each other a bit. A: Saying that JonTron said some bullshit and calling it what it is; bullshit. B: Arguing that calling bullshit "bullshit" is just too mean, and that we must obfuscate honesty for the sake of some politically correct post-modern shit. Also, prejudice and ignorance are general rules that cover multiple situations, whereas racism is a specific word. I am prejudice of McDonalds locations I've never been too. I am ignorant of particle physics. Racism is a word that can be used to cover ignorance and prejudice in regards to race specifically. [quote=@SleepingSilence] [@Vilageidiotx] Is it really debatable though? Illegal immigration means crime has already been committed. Are we arguing for http://www.roleplayerguild.com/topics/160898-lets-talk-about-jontron-and-his-possibly-racist-views/ooc?page=5#crime to become okay? Because that's really about all that can be debated. The reason the other side doesn't use that word is so people don't question the whole "illegal" thing. Not to nitpick, that is sort of what I'm doing. But I just don't feel like going full course. I'm politic'd out. :P [/quote] Well I hope we can debate the nature of law, yeh. That's a backbone of western thought. Leave it to the courts to be specific about legality, it is the job of the rest of us as citizens to debate based on what is best for our society.