[quote=Jorick] -Counter Points Snip-[/quote] To start with, I'll just list the topic's we already agree on. Then I'll proceed to counter-argue the rest of the points. Both mine and Zaresto's though, cause they both make arguments for how men are discriminated against just as much or more than women are. +Clarification on my points: I wasn't trying to say "These are men issues, and not women issues" but rather "These are men issues, that people like to try to ignore at times are issues/discrimination men face". Cause often times when feminism is mentioned people go "Women are discriminated in _____, ______, _____ & ______" but then go on to claim men are never discriminated against, and/or ignore the fact that women discrimination issues also have a male version of it going on. I probably should of made a paragraph for each of those points rather than just listing them in order to clarify this back then. [hider=Agreed on] -Child Custody (Male issue) -Feelings (Equal Issue) -Family Stuff (Equal Issue) But to note here, it's the men who normally have to empty the wallets and do most of the hard work for culture while women get it easy. But like you said, women are shamed for doing the same. So I guess it boils down to what is worse? Being expected to foot most of the bill and effort? Or being treated as if you shouldn't be expected to? Or would said issues be about equal? Either way though, I agree that this one seems to be a gender equal issue. -Body Image (Female Issue) Like the Clarification above. I wasn't trying to deny a female equivalent, but with the rise of things such as feminist frequency people have really started to highlight bad female influences in the media and appearance (Even if Anita's specific arguments are total crap), but in the process forgotten than men are also exposed to some of those pressures and influences. -Genital Mutilation (Male Issue) -Draft (Male Issue) -Parental Expectations (Equal Issue) [/hider] [b]Rape -[/b] I remember that case... Everyone who helped in covering up that case should of been charged with assisting rape and evidence fraud. The Hacker who exposed them should of been hailed as a hero, not charged with Jail time. And all those people who defended those boys should be publicly exposed and shamed for supporting rape *end rant*. I will agree that the idea of victim blaming has many more factors to it than just gender. It's a more complex issue than that. But I'm merely pointed at how (depending on the area) if a woman get's raped it's a serious issue, but in a man get's raped it's a joke. There's even cases where people claim "Men getting raped doesn't happen", and rarely do people claim the same for cases of women getting raped. So in terms of rape itself? The prevalence and such I'd rule women get it worse. But when it's specifically how we treat the person who is raped, I'd say men get it worse. Both a Male and Female dominant issue in different areas. I won't rule which gender get's it worse here yet, since this also devolves into a big and sensitive topic for people of what's worse in rape? The act of being raped, or the way you're treated for it? [b]Oppressors -[/b] In regards to oppressing in the whole of the debate. You're right in that history gave women the short end of the stick. But that's not a valid excuse for seeing men as the Oppressor's today. It's blaming the men of today for the actions of the men of the last generation. If feminism is really going to attack today's men for what they're ancestors did... The feminism is attacking the wrong time era and lost it's relevancy. In regards to that men should be dominant though. You are correct, this is an equal issue against both men and women. I'd need clarification as to what he meant here though before I rule this for any side. [b]Prison -[/b] Given the stats, it is more logical like you say to be harder on men than women. That doesn't make it right, or equal treatment though to be doing so. A criminal should be charged appropriate to the crime on hand, and their criminal history. Not their crime +What other's of their gender are responsible for. [b]Expendable Men -[/b] I'll agree there's some trace of female discrimination here. The idea females are seen as more vulnerable and needed to protect. But I think that's more than outweighed by that only men are forced to go to war in a time of draft, and when people do start saving lives it is the men made the lowest priority. They're lives are essentially given the lowest value. If having your life mean less than another's cause of gender isn't sexism and gender discrimination then I don't know what is. --------------------------------------- So in the end, our total results so far are: Male Specific Issues: 5 (Child Custody, Genital Mutilation, Drafting, Prison, Expendable Men) Gender Equal Issues: 3 (Family Issues, Feelings, Parent Expectations) Women Issues: 1 (Body Image) Now obviously, there are many women specific issues not being highlighted here. Mainly because this debate began because we were simply trying to argue for how men are discriminated and feminism ignores it. So we will still need to address all the female discrimination issues before a ruling can be put down on who get's it worse. [quote=Jorick]Oh, and for the sake of fairness, this sort of garbage also exists on the other side of the aisle too. There are those who claim to be concerned with male issues but use it as a disguise for misogyny and such. People suck, they always try to co-opt well meaning movements for their own shitty agendas.[/quote] I'd argue these cases are for more rare (though that's probably a direct result of those support specifically men's rights are far more rare than those support specifically feminism), but this is damn annoying to have to deal with when it does happen. -.- [quote=Jorick]Because when it first became a thing females were second-class citizens even in otherwise progressive nations, so naming the movement for gender equality based on the current lay of the land made all kinds of sense. Part of the core ideology was always a removal of gender roles, which included those of males that cause all sorts of issues, but it did indeed focus solely on women at first because that was the area in need of vastly more work. The main reason there hasn't been a name switch is because feminism is such a huge movement that renaming is impossible; attempts to change monikers leads to people being viewed as splinter groups that aren't part of feminism, so they lose a lot of their credibility and sway in society. This is part of why people who say "I'm not a feminist, I'm a humanist" are given shit, because humanism isn't a well known thing that has a lot of social clout like feminism. It's sort of goofy that a movement seeking gender equality has a naming bias like that, but hey, a rose by any other name.[/quote] I can understand the confusion and division that can rise up from changing the name. But it's still inaccurate and harms the goal and focus for gender equality if the cause that's meant to be supporting for gender equality sticks with a name showing bias to one side. It would still imply and give the subconscious message that female rights are more important. Which may have roles to play in feminazi's calling themselves feminist, and people choosing to move to causes like Humanism instead. [quote=Jorick]I'd agree with the split down the middle estimate, though only when talking about those who openly talk about being feminists. Those who don't make a big hubbub about it tend to be the kind that want gender equality, but of those who'll describe themselves as a feminist it seems roughly 50/50 for being a real feminist versus being a pro-women advocate, which are indeed different things[/quote] Those who don't make a big hubbub about it could he humanist though also. 1st wave feminism claims to be gender equality, so does humanist. So those who claim to simply support gender equality but aren't vocal about could be either feminist or humanist. [quote=Jorick]Not necessarily. It's entirely possible that if female gender roles are eradicated, male gender roles will either go with them or follow soon after. They appear to exist in a sort of parasitic opposition, so if you remove one the other ought to shrivel away. Even if that's not the case, getting rid of female gender roles would at least make it bloody obvious that the same is going on with men, so full attention could be turned to getting rid of that side of things. Ideally though, both sides of the equation should be strangled simultaneously if at all possible. That'd make things cleaner and neater all round. This is all ignoring the high probability that due to human nature gender roles will never actually go away, but hey, it's all hypothetical anyway.[/quote] I'm not denying eliminating women issues would help men issues. But there may still be some cases like genital mutilation which remains a male issue if we simply address women issues and hope that men issues vanish as well. We're in agreement though in that it would be neater to simply handle both at once, rather than handle only one and hope it ends up aiding the other. Humanity over time though has abandoned and grown above more and more of their human nature. I don't see it being a permanent influence over how we treat each other by gender. In my mind though, even if after all cultural stigma's are gone and men and women are treated 100% equally we still see more men doing X and more women doing Y due to factors like physical builds, hormones etc that's completely fine with me. As long as they are like that because that is who they are, and not because that what society told them to be like. [quote=Jorick]Many men also do little to quell radical feminists. This isn't an indictment of feminism so much as it is an indictment of the bystander mentality prevalent in humanity. Lots of times people see something bad or stupid going on, they won't step in even if it'd take a trivial amount of effort. Trying to call bullshit on feminists for not reining in the radicals is like trying to call bullshit on politicians for not reining in political extremists. It's not really their job and they've no obligation to do so, it's up to the listener to decide whether a voice is worth paying attention to or is full of shit.[/quote] In a sense I agree with you. But in terms of feminism specifically, I'm not surprised less men bother quelling feminism. Feminism in modern days is largely a movement that discriminates and hates men. Men naturally are going to be more opening to ignoring said feminism and finding a cause that does support them, rather than try to give the movement that's outright attacking them a fair shake. [quote=Jorick]There we go. Your list of male problems was a lot stronger than Magic Magnum's. Solid 50/50 on clear male problems versus ones that have balance in related female problems, none that were obviously outweighed by the female side. I could argue that these are a lot smaller issues than the core female problems, but I'll let that half a sentence suffice rather than taking a paragraph or two to do it, though I'll go into detail if asked.[/quote] I will admit he brought up more good arguments than I was able to think of at the time. But if you're going to make a claim that female problems are worse than men problems when most of the arguments so far are making points as to why Men's right are just as bad if not worse. I'm going to want to see the detailed version to support said claim. [quote=Jorick]Okay, rant over, on to the other things. Women do have the right to vote, yep. Equal pay though? Nope, not at all. When you look at full-time workers, women are paid on average 77% of what men are paid. This figure is an average from across all kinds of occupations, but there exists a pay gap between men and women who have the same level of experience and qualifications doing the same job in almost every field, including those that are typically dominated by females like teachers and nurses. A lot of people like to bring up maternity leave and such to explain it, but even when you look at a childless women they're only paid an average of 82% of what their male counterparts are paid. These are all figures from the United States, from data gathered in 2012. I wouldn't call being pay about 1/5 less than men "equal pay," so I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say women have it.[/quote] So there are studies supporting that when childless women work equal hours with equal skill than a man in the same job that the man is still paid more? Can I see the source? Cause up to this point every time someone claimed women were paid less, they were either referencing the flawed study that didn't consider factors such as leave or career choices, or simply just quoted it cause it's something feminism always states. [quote=Jorick]Women are adored by society? Hmm. Who's doing the adoring? Why are they being adored? The only adoration I see comes from men to women they find attractive. Is this a boon for women, or is it a product of objectification? When it comes to sex, sure women have an easier time getting a partner, but they're also shamed for doing so where men are congratulated for their conquests. That one's a two-way street though, as there are plenty anti-male things with sex (such as sexually inactive males being subject to far more mockery than women, and sexual dysfunctions in men being the subject of jokes whereas they're viewed almost universally as serious medical problems for women). For gender-based insults, I think Dark Wind was talking about things like bitch, cunt, slut, whore, and pussy that are derived from female sources (the first two), mainly directed at females (slut and whore), or insult by way of likening someone to stereotypically female traits (pussy). The only similar insult for men is dick, so if you buy into the idea of gendered slurs and such (which I don't, as my phrasing should have made clear) there's a pretty clear bias.[/quote] I'd have to agree with this. Thunderf00t also once made a good video about how being an attractive women could be a disadvantage in that the extra attention and praise you get is from your looks and not your skill. That simply by having a pretty face it becomes harder to be appreciated for your knowledge or skill than it would be otherwise. [quote=Jorick]Eh, that's talking about domestic violence, not rape. People (not just men, though men more often to be sure) get laughed at for reporting rape for other reasons. If you go take a look at studies on victim blaming, you'll see that people in general tend to blame the victim of a rape (which in turn implies a lack of sympathy and a chance of mockery); when you look at it separated by gender, men blame the victim more often than females, both when the victim is female and when the victim is male. As I've said elsewhere in this post, the negative attitudes about rape victims has a lot to do with things other than sexism. It's true that men are less likely to be taken seriously when reporting rape, and that difference between genders is where the sexism lies, but you can't ignore the fact that women also get mocked and blamed for being raped. There are deeper problems in this area that make a foundation upon which sexism is one of many layers, so claiming that any kind of nonsensical attitude about rape is solely for sexist reasons is not taking all the facts into account. [/quote] Even if men blame the victim more often than women do, doesn't make the fact a man being raped is a laughing manner that's rarely taken seriously unlike a woman's case is still an argument. It simply means that men have more work to do in this area in smartening up and to stop blaming the victim. I do agree that women also get mocked and blamed for being raped, and that there are also other causes at work here. I find the amount women get blamed compared to men though depends on the area. You'll find those area's whose main concern are those football kids who can land big bucks for their hometown of the rape is covered up. But also find those area's where raping a women is totally unacceptable, but raping men is a 'myth'.