[hider=Brovo]

As I said. The vast majority come out of it okay. Some don't. Some do get long lasting scars and that's unfortunate. Some do become bullies because of it and that's unfortunate. However, we cannot then even pretend that it's comparable to a parent abusing their child with physical means. It's not. One of these things is hugely more detrimental than the other. We're talking on the level of tuna fish versus blue whale in size difference here, if you get what I'm trying to say.

I'm not saying that verbal abuse is right, or that it's something we should totally ignore. It's something that needs to be addressed, but with an entirely different set of instruments than physical abuse towards a child. Because the latter pretty much guarantees physical and psychological scars that will last the rest of their lives and often does translate into further child abuse later on down the line. It's a vicious cycle that usually requires outside interference to resolve.

On the other hand, verbal abuse is something every child goes through at least once in their lives. Especially now that we all have the Internet at our disposal. Everyone gets hurt and it services an actual purpose: Burst the special snowflake self-image if the parents can't will themselves to do it. Believe it or not, verbal abuse can be used to help a child grow more confident in themselves, not less confident--"The bully has to make you feel bad to feel better about himself, that means you're stronger than him simply by knowing he isn't anything without you!" You use the experience in a constructive manner to help your child deal with the fact that, in the real world, there will be a lot of hateful, spiteful people, and they can let it get to them, eat them away every day, or they can move on and grow up, became responsible people with courageous hearts.

Will it stop them from getting hurt? No, but some amount of pain is good pain. It's life pain, growing pain. It helps transition children into becoming adults: That is, how they deal with their pain helps define who it is they will be when they are adults.

Now, constant verbal abuse that lasts for months? Shit needs to get done, and there are avenues one can take, methods one can use, all of which avoid physical contact. However, Gwazi (intentionally or not) drew the comparison line at physical abuse of a child and bullying. Thus bullying by association gained the physical abuse attribute. The only logical response to someone trying to beat you, possible to severe injury or death, is to fight back physically. Hit them back. If you don't, they will hurt you and possible kill you.

That's all I'm trying to get at here, is the comparison is rather ludicrous on the face of it because the two problems are inherently completely different. The only tangential link they share is causing pain to the victim.[/hider]

The idea that one form of abuse is more detrimental or more serious than the other sounds more like personal belief than fact. So, yes, we can believe that both should be taken with an equal level of seriousness. And yes, we should engage with both physical and verbal abuse with the understanding that the two are all too often linked, and that how a parent treats their child with either will undoubtedly have significant effects in their lives. Whether every child who is told they are shit seeks confidence through bullying, or if they instead use more sinister means such as sexual assault or seeking higher offices to satisfy that hole, the problem is clear in our society. Punch me or call me a racial slur, either way, you're damaging a part of who I am. That damage will stay with me, whether the scar is visible or not.

Verbal abuse is not a tool. Brovo, can't you imagine better ways to teach your child that being a special snowflake is neither realistic nor ideal than to build that conception before breaking it down through any form of abusive tactic? Yes, we all will face verbal abuse in our lives. But if you're seeing it as a means to solve our entitlement problem, perhaps it'd be more effective to push education about power and oppression first. Hell, maybe we can ditch this idea that being super is more satisfying than being a part of a community you choose to nourish. Verbal abuse can cause some people to grow a thick skin and accept a reality that some people will always hate them. Sure, absolutely, that's something being a person of colour teaches you as you see those who face extreme racism and violence decide how to build their lives. But the simple fact is that just acknowledging that this suffering can make you strong isn't all that's necessary. This isn't some precious treasure you've revealed unto the world. Thriving from punishment requires more than an individual's will and perseverance, it requires support from outside too. You don't just get to move and grow up from being made to feel that you're less than everyone else. It's a form of socialization, and you should know already how painfully difficult it is to just change that veil you've been made to look through. Just recognizing it isn't enough. When verbal abuse is used, our perceptions are changed, and given time, they can be altered beyond our ability to just 'grow up'. So, no, I do not accept that one can just choose to be strong and buck up in the face of this sort of preventable abuse. It's an easy path to justify something so problematic as somehow useful, despite the irreparable damage it clearly leaves with so many.

Again, 'the only logical response to violence is to fight back' is an opinion and not a fact. Just because the easiest and most immediate response for you may be to respond with a show of force does not make it the exclusive OR most logical option. That's simply not how we all think, obviously. Take a step back on this issue though. You get that we're told the best way to engage with a bully is with equal or greater force, right? It's sort of the Western motto. The good guy is always good, even if they beat their nemesis to a pulp and kills hundreds of henchpeople on the way there. Johnny is getting picked on and beaten up, so Johnny's poppa is going to teach him how to deck the sucker. This right up there with Uncle Sam, American Pie, and the notion that we'll be give Hitler a solid right hook to the chin to turn him right around. Have you considered that it might be possible that while yes, you believe this, but perhaps the reason you come to this conclusion so passionately is because it's what we've all had depicted to us as we've grown up? It's harder to think of non-violent solutions. Those who do are usually assassinated and considered weak in the eyes of America. Ironically, even steadfast Judeo-Christian believers often seem to support giving a bully what's coming to them rather than turning the other cheek and responding with love. We pick and choose the easiest solution. It's satisfying to punch back, absolutely. But in my experience the way that temptation feels has rarely led me to good results. Besides, I'd be a monster to decide my life was more valuable than another's.

[quote]@Gwazi And I'm not going to bother responding to everything Gwazi spewed because he entirely missed the point of everything I was saying to respond to something that I didn't say at all. Example: Hitler was used as an example of all of human history, and that . Or until he went insane, as he did go insane when he was losing the defending war against the Allies and killed himself and his wife.However, you somehow misconstrued this to mean that Hitler would have totally run away if America got involved, but instead they didn't and fought to the end--once again making it an argument about third party interventionism--something I've already, repeatedly stated, doesn't work.The point of the example Gwazi is that malevolent predators--hunters--bullies, like Hitler, will continue to do what they do until someone stops them. Until someone hits them so fucking hard they give up. Hitler gave up in the end, he killed himself. A bully will give up in the end, either because you're too hard a mark to bully, or because they're sociopaths and you were forced to defend yourself until they were hospitalized. Pacifism doesn't work against a bully, it never has, it never will. You to fight when physical confrontation occurs. All of human history has shown this. Time, and time, and time again. To ignore it is to literally ignore the war songs of mankind for the past ten thousand years.
[/quote]

Wasn't Hitler a watercolour artist who fancied architectural and landscape paintings first? He was rejected from art school before falling into poverty until the Great War. Even before the unfair treaties following the war, racism was rampant around Germany. In the aftermath, when far more turned to racism in order to blame newcomers to their country for the suffering the German population endured-- pretty familiar to today -- Hitler found some truth in such blaming. He was one among a many desperate for some solace for the misfortune of their nation and the extreme poverty they faced. Many can feel turned against by the world, but the treaties which bankrupted Germany were literally signed by the world's largest powers. It should be no surprise that such collective force would inspire a deep pride in enduring such trauma, as well as the subsequent superiority complex after rising from the ashes. 

The Hitler story continues, obviously, but my point is he doesn't do this alone. Using the Hitler example in any context requires us to consider the cultural context that fed into his perspective and the unfortunate truth that Hitler was not some lone madman. He is unlikely to have grown into what he was without the community of hatred to validate and perpetuate his hateful point of view. So as with any form of abuse, with Hitler too, after we settle the initial violence we [b]need[/b] to focus on the systematic problems. There are clear issues leading to many of our bullies and killers, and chalking everything up to them 'just being sadistic' is ignoring the possibility that something else is going on. The longer we ignore that possibility, the longer allow others to be exposed to the problems and crack.