[quote=Brovo]"If any Religious person is reading this, please answer this question: If you found out your God didn't exist, would you now go out raping and murdering people? If not then you just proved that you don't need Religion to be a moral human being." Double logical fallacy right there. Using an extreme example then presuming your opponent's answer, answering in advance, and proclaiming victory before any discussion could even occur. This is as bad as asking an atheist if they would go raping people if the law suddenly allowed it tomorrow, then using evidence of that to prove that laws against rape are unnecessary and declaring victory. It's a broken question in two painfully obvious aspects, Gwazi. [/quote]

Noted, I'll admit to this being a bad habit of mine that needs to be broken. 

[quote=Imperfectionist]:( I really, completely and utterly those emotes ( this one and this one ). Just seeing them both in your post, Brovo (especially this one at the end), makes me think "Yeah, Brovo's point is sound, that does seem like a logically flawed question... But does he(?) have to be such an asshole about it?" I don't think that post is going to help anything, is what I'm saying, but that's a whole different diatribe about the arguments I've seen on the Guild...

EDIT: The answer is "no", he doesn't. He chooses to, and he could choose to be a helpful part of the discussion instead. Hostility breeds hostility.[/quote]

You don't need to worry on my account. :P
I'm more than used to Brovo acting that way, and honestly I prefer it that way. It gives me a closer insight to his actual opinion and thoughts than I would get otherwise. I say closer since after having read those PM's you and Brovo exchanged it became apparent Brovo was not being 100% honest/straightforward with me.

Besides, I'm big on the idea of people need to develop thicker skin and learn to handle criticism and disagreement's better rather than take offense. It allows for not only debates like this to become more common, but it also allows though who simply aren't as good with words to state their point without being dismissed as assholes. Lastly it also simply teaches people to be tougher in general and helps avoid a culture where we simply censor things or shelter people, resulting in undiscussed topics and more people who simply cannot handle honesty.

[quote=Imperfectionist]I might not have understood you or your arguments correctly (in fact, I'm quite sure I didn't), but that is the impression they leave on me[/quote]

Note: This is also encompassing the stuff stated over the posted PM's.

There was a decent enough stated, with both of you that was both right and wrong.

I think you hit a nail on the head I had in fact missed myself, the whole being bitter about how I used to act religiously and am now in a sense expressing it out. This is something I did stop to reflect on and it rung true when I did think about it. However, I don't necessarily see it as a problem. Most people who passionately argue or disagree with something due so for a reason, a reason that has either effected them personally or was an injustice they saw and observed. 

To clarify a miss-statement, I do not see or treat all Religious people the same like Brovo has claimed. I've told him several times that it is the structure/system of Religion and how it effects people I have issues with. Not the individuals within in. I know many good and amazing people who are religious, but none of them by any means need their Religion to be good people. 

Also there was a misunderstanding on my childhood in that it was a generally unpleasant one. Now I can't blame this conclusion since the only reference I made to my family in this thread was a negative moment, but my childhood was not a terrible one (granted not the best either), but none of it's issues were caused by Religion. Which I will explain in a bit.

Now my childhood was happy, but not perfect to clarify. I grew up with Autism so bullying in school was common, and for many hours after school I was in therapy. Therapy that often amounted to the therapists getting mad at me, then me coming on to argue with my Mom basically every day while my Dad was almost always at work. As a result, I have not grown close to my family, I grew very separate from them and learned to gain happiness and reliance on friends instead. So whenever someone claims "I love my family! Me and my parents are really close!" you'll probably get a very alien look from me. However, none of this was the result of Religion. My parents were religious, but casual Christians.

My whole deal and exploration with Religion started when I was 14, when my Grandparent (The one mentioned earlier who tried to disown his granddaughter) died, who was a very strong Catholic. Now I got along with him fine to clarify, I still miss him to this day. However, his death got me thinking. The most religious person I know was dead, and this was also the first time I lost a family member. It got me seriously reflecting on the afterlife an what's awaiting me. So I made the choice on my own to study my own Religion, because my Mom's answers of "Just Ignore the Bible and just listen to the Ten Commandments" wasn't cutting it for me. The Bible was meant to be Christianity, how could I possibly be a Christian by ignoring it?

So I jumped right into it, and this lasted for 2-3 years. It mainly consisted of planting myself in an online Christian community to learn more about Christianity, and although I was raised a casual christian I was still raised Christian and that God was fact. So I was quickly swepped away and fell for a number of things I'm ashamed of. Mainly the utter disregard I gave to science, and how I treated the LGBT community during that time. Now, if it was just this group I could of easily left and simply dismiss it as a bad bunch. But it was something I was noticing out of almost every religious person (except for one Pagan friend I made) I ran into. 

During these 2-3 years I was also exposed to the arguments of a number of atheists, and eventually they got through to me and I started to call myself an Agnostic. Then during this time I got learning more about science, and the other side of Religion. The receiving side, people who had to deal with rough religious upbringings, were discriminated against for not being Religious etc. 

Overtime as my knowledge on Religion and Science grew I started identifying as an atheist instead and eventually after having seen enough of the negative's of Religion I looked back at my own family. My finding's were that there was not really much influence religion did hold in their lives, but what influence it was wasn't good. It was purely blind faith without proof, and it wasn't actually contributing or adding anything of value.

So I do agree that not all religious people are bad, not everyone who is religious will be crazy hateful extremists. But it is a system where when I went into it did not show by benefit, only methods to cut off one's standard of proof, and in more extreme families destroyed families, relationships, and was making big moves against scientific advancement and the LGBT community. So I have not found anything good or positive in the system of Religion, but that doesn't mean I hate everyone who is religious.

->I will also note though, I have a huge desire for knowing the truth even if it's hurts. I believe truth and honesty always is preferable to lies and dishonesty, no matter the circumstance. And when I look at Religion through a scientific stance it also irks me to see so many people except something that uses so many logical fallacies to support itself because there is no actual proof or evidence to support it. This does play a decent role in my position, but if not for the other reasons listed above I'd probably be fine with Religion as long as it wasn't getting the way of how our next generation get taught in school.

----More aimed at Brovo, but it was stated to you so you might as well read as well----

I noticed a repeated criticism that I am simply unwilling to learn. I've already explained this though, I am open to learn and being proven wrong. But there has not been anything shown to convince me that Religion can be a force for good. At least not in a way that isn't easily replicated by another method. You've seen constant proof of me absorbing new info on this Guild and change a stance as a result. Hell my transition from Pro-Life to Pro-Choice was largely due to the debate me and Jorick had on the topic.

But in regards to Religion I just haven't seen compelling reason or proof to change my stance, in the same sense you are not changing your stance because you have not received the same from me. That is not unwillingness to learn, that is skepticism and having certain standards before changing your stance on a topic.