[quote=So Boerd]Fine then. If you are allowed to "No True Scotsman" an atheistic ideology,[/quote] No one is pulling a "No True Scotsman" of anything. The issue is you're making the assumption that atheism and communism is the same thing, which it isn't. You're taking the actions of a government system and then claiming that applies to anyone without a religion, two unrelated thing. [quote=So Boerd]If Atheists murdered people explicitly for believing God, what caused them to do it?[/quote] I've already told you, the [i]Communist Heads[/i] killed people for holding loyalty to something other than them. That's what caused the killings, not some sort of "Abolish Religion in the name of there not being a god!". [quote=So Boerd]Let me dodge these semantics by instead proposing that lack of religion makes you more violent. Now, there is no way around Communism's crimes. Let's do an approximate deaths per capita since the Enlightenment, when there began to be more than a few atheists, and you will find those without religion are responsible for more deaths in absolute terms, to say nothing of proportional.[/quote] Once against Communism =/= Atheism. So approximate death per capita between Atheism and Religion is rather one sided. However, if we were to use your reasoning then Fascism sounds as Christian/Religious. If you're allowed to claim Communism is Atheist because Stalin and Mao were atheists (Even though Communism could easily have a Christian head since nothing in it requires a lack of a religion) then I in turn should (wrongfully) be allowed to claim that Facism is Christian because Hitler was a Christian. So add up the deaths by Hitler with every Crusade, Inquisition, Raid/Murder/Slavery justified with religion, all the Religious terrorist groups etc? The numbers are still not in your favor, so even with your flawed reasoning the numbers are against you. [quote=Protagonist]1. It depends on the religion. Atheism doesn't state there is a god, but it does mean there's no competition, either. However, in a monotheistic religion, there's a finite number of spots open. Christianity itself actually tends to invert the cult of personality, as they tend to be paranoid about the whole Antichrist thing. 2. You still have to address what people follow INSTEAD of religion, and if following that would be truly better. In the example of Communism, the answer is decidedly not. Sure, religious people have done awful things, too. However, using Bin Laden to make judgements about religion in general is basically the same as using Stalin to make judgements about Atheism. The problem isn't religion itself, it's that there's multiple competing worldviews that can't stand each other. Sure, everyone being Atheists would end most problems associated with religion, but so would everyone being Catholic.And one more thing: Atheists often claim moral superiority to Theists on the grounds that they don't commit the same crimes they do. Even if we were to assume this is true, that might not be enough. While people do bad things in the name of their religions, they also do lots of good. There's a reason why lots of hospitals are named after saints. Has anyone ever done anything good in the name of there not being a God?[/quote] 1. Oh yea, Atheism is facing division (Oddly enough, considering atheism simply means without religion. So it should be impossible to divide a non-existent) as a result of Atheism+. Apparently feminism has learned the secret's of dividing 0. :/ 2. Though once again, one can be Christian and still a communist. Which granted is suicidal if Stalin or Mao is in charge, could be completely different if a Christian were to made head. The difference between Stalin and Osama is that Stalin did it in the name of Communism/Personal power and authority, political motivation. Osama did it in the same of his religion and anger at America for getting involved in their business. A combination of political and religious motivation. Now, Stalin being an atheist and being responsible for so many deaths does beyond a doubt prove that atheists are capable of great violent crimes (which I was never arguing against btw). But it does not prove that him being an atheist was the reasoning or cause for it, especially considering many atheists were also killed by him. Though everyone being Catholic would not quite solve most problems with religion. Cause people will get personal interpretations of it all the time, which would eventually evolve into a religion of it's own against and then we'd be back where we started. Also I will admit that there are many atheists who claim moral superiority simply on the fact they are atheist, but I am not one of those atheist. I might agree that on average atheists may be more moral simply because their values come from themselves, and not out of a fear in God. But there is nothing that automatically makes one more immoral for being religious, you can be religious and still be one of the most kind, caring and wonderful people in the world. It's like saying "Atheists on average have a higher IQ. Therefore I, an atheists are automatically smarter than you a Christian". An average is strictly that, an average. Not an absolute guarantee/law that holds true 100% of the time. And to answer "Why do people do good things in the name of Religion but not in the name of atheism?". That's because atheism is the lack of a religion, there is nothing to praise, nothing to do anything in the name of. For example, let's take a church and a group of people who all happen to be atheist. But groups see a high amount of homeless people in the area, both groups want to help. The atheist group then goes ahead, makes a charity and works to help feed and shelter the poor. The Church, also being good peoples does the same. But the Church believes in good, part of their religion is spreading Gods word through good deeds, so while they are helping the poor they make sure to advertise their God and Religion. Something the atheists are not doing, because they have no God or Religion to be advertising. It's not a matter of there are no atheist charities because atheists don't volunteer. It's a matter of atheists have no need to spread the word of "I lack a religion" around, so they simply go out and help without bringing religion into it. [quote=So Boerd]As there is nothing innate in the simple belief in God that says kill the unbelievers. I take it this means you agred with me and repudiate Magic's blanket condemnation of religion?[/quote] Dude, you ignored practically everything she said there. You're not going to win many debates by ignoring the majority of a person's point, only to pull out a single sentence and try to twist it to turn people against one another.