[quote=@Mammalia] But this relies on a false premise--that is, if we can't convince someone to convert, then they are a lost cause. Often, it is not our words that will turn someone to Christ, but the circumstances that they find themselves in. God may use providence to save someone, or he may use punishment or hard times. So if we cannot convert someone, then we must find another way to discourage them, and that may be punishments. Consider these verses: Romans 13:1-3a: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. ..." TL;DR: We must be subject to governing authorities, which are sent from God. That is not my point quite yet--just a premise we can both agree on, because it's in the Bible. 1 Peter 2:13-14: "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors [b]as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.[/b]" Now, you may say to this that the institutions are human, and you could interpret "him" as the emperor, although I wouldn't expect you to, so let me refer you to one last verse to drive my point home. Deuteronomy 16:18: “You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment." Here, God explicitly appoints governmental officers to judge the people--a verse that combines the points of the previous two. When laws are produced that honour morality and punish immorality, then they must have been ordained by God. So, at the last, I will continue Romans 13:1-3 with verse 5: "But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, [b]an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.[/b]" Like I said, God punishes people--and the main way He does so is through the law. These statements can't be interpreted any other way, even in full context. They say what they mean and they mean what they say. [/quote] But my point is that if they are meant to be punished, then they will be. But it's not inherently humanity's job to punish each other. If God does it through us, then so be it. That's what your final verse is talking about. But you have to understand how imperfect our system is, how often people get punished by our system when they have genuinely done nothing to constitute the punishment. Our laws are in place to justify punishment, and it is far from perfect. In a way, it is our form of having people go out of their way to "deal justice." In reality, we can never tell these days from just looking at it if the punishment our system executes is truly a punishment from God or simply a misunderstanding caused by human imperfection and unfortunate circumstance. In short, what I am trying to say is that, on top of everything else that I have said, we cannot reliably consider our own government or others to be consistently dealing with things the way God wants 100% of the time. I hope I articulated this little bit well enough, I had a hard time putting it into words.