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Edit: Holy shit. That post ended up being way longer than I expected (I blame quoting people). Read at your own peril.
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[@shylarah]
I'll reply around specific portions (whether they were directed at me or not) of your post again, to make sure everything I say has context.

[quote=shylarah]
Gonna agree with the part about mental disorders.  It's less the presence of the disorder and more not knowing what it's like to have it.  I'm sure I've done this with things.  ...I've also bent the truth for plot, but I imagine it would upset the wrong audience.
[/quote]
The reason we have threads like [url=http://www.roleplayerguild.com/topics/151005-writing-mental-disorders/ooc]this[/url] is pretty much born from the way people can often bite off more than they can chew when it comes to mental illnesses. This doesn't mean that writing them is bad, or that GMs allowing them is wrong, but rather is just proof that - in all elements of writing - you should make sure you have the details down before getting into things -- research is essential.

[quote=shylarah]
Before I say anything else, let me say again that I do appreciate a well-considered reply.  <3  Nor will you ever find me complaining about too much to read simply because of length.  My issues always come in other departments.  Bashing is bad in general.  I try to reserve it for those who absolutely suck and the rest is just grievances with the world in general.  ^.^;;  I don't always convey that well, though.  *sigh*
[/quote]
Once again, I'll also say 'cheers' for that, since you're one of the people I was referring to in my post when I said some of you on this site do appreciate my responses. Don't wrong me wrong; I wasn't outright implying you specifically when I started talking about 'bashing', but more just that it's a dangerous path that a lot of people start walking down when they become critical of people wanting to be detailed and post a lot of information.

[quote=shylarah]
I think there's major flaws in the divisions.  I've come into conflict with rpers specifically because of it, namely length and lore depth being mostly independent issues (plus anyone telling me I /can't/ think about details because it's not an advanced rp is going to frustrate me) but I'm also contentious by nature.  Unfortunately.  ^.^;;
[/quote]
I completely relate to you here -- I actually had to pull out of my first role-play on this site (it was in 'casual') due to the amount of depth I wanted to bring to the table being too much for that particular role-play in question. There wasn't any personal issues between me and the GM, and honestly I think they're a cool guy, but I simply can't commit to a style of role-play that puts a leash on my passion for depth. There's nothing wrong with them wanting a really basic role-play -- that's simply not for me personally. One of the reasons I'm reluctant to even join role-plays in the 'casual' forum is due to being worried that what I bring will be considered 'overkill', so I completely understand your frustration.

[quote=shylarah]
I agree that even the smallest things can have a big impact -- like with your pocketwatch -- but there's also the literary idea of conservation of detail: if it's mentioned, it's important/relevant.  It's hard to find a good balance, and you're right, there's no one correct answer.
[/quote]
With that pocket watch example, it's actually a somewhat important magical item (I won't spoil anything beyond that), but even if it wasn't... I still think the fact that the character is carrying one is significant. For example, the character would be able to find out what the time is, whereas someone without the pocket watch (or a wristwatch, or phone, et cetera) wouldn't be able to. In my eyes, this is a noteworthy advantage that should be included in the character sheet. However, there's more to it than that -- the fact that he's carrying a pocket watch hints at a preference for these old-fashioned or vintage pieces, as opposed a more contemporary wristwatch. It's also a subtle hint that he hates wearing anything with a tight sensation. This means that a seemingly meaningless accessory happens to actually form a realistic detail about his personality.

For all intents and purposes, I think every detail in a character's outfit - no matter how small - can attribute nuances like this that bring a character to life. These are the sorts of details that a particularly analytical character would realistically assess about someone when looking at their choice of clothing. The fact that a character has a piercing or a tattoo might be meaningless to some people, but to them these are windows into a detail about the person. This is why - as you just said yourself, and therefore we agree - it's difficult to find a good balance because whether something is important/relevant or not actually has more to do with the observer than it does the player who's role-playing the character in question whose clothing is being discussed. When it comes to matters like this, I operate under the 'school of thought' that it's better to have too much detail than not enough, which is why I'll always push for more than less in my character sheets.

[quote=shylarah]
Actually, I slightly disagree.  A char sheet might not be necessary for a world with dozens of characters.  The multi-year lore-intensive but script-style realtime rp I'm in three nights a week has...let's see.  There's something like six players, and we each have two to four focus characters minimum, and then there's a bunch of recurring ones, and...yeah.  So that meets the standard.  However, we started without any char sheet, or possibly with a name and a brief blurb, like a character concept.  And as we go, we have a forum that has a lot of the lore and try to keep it updated.  Instead of character /sheets/, each of the characters has something more like a...synopsis, or a biography.  No set format, no set details.  It's whatever people feel is important to be remembered.  Most of mine are a quick image, often a dollmaker one, or a sketch I did, and then highlights from their past covering the important points going forward, and a quick sketch of personality.  I suppose you could call it a sheet, but making them felt nothing like the hassle of writing up an official sheet.  *shrug*  Big issue here is that they weren't made before the rp started, and stuff about new chars isn't added until after we get to know them.
[/quote]
There's a possibility I'm misinterpreting what you mean by 'script-style real-time role-play', since I haven't heard the term and the first thing I thought you meant was a role-play in person (so live acting role-play, basically), but now I'm more inclined to think you're talking about something akin to a chat room role-play. Keep this in mind as I respond to you, since I might not have context.

Honestly, I've never had a problem writing character sheets, but then I've been doing it for my own story characters on paper long before I got involved in role-playing on the internet. With that said, what you're describing doesn't sound all that different to a character sheet -- a character sheet is still a character sheet even if it doesn't follow a specific format. I still question whether or not I'd be able to portray the reactions of my characters towards your characters realistically based on the information in the style of synopsis you're mentioning, but I don't need to go into this in more detail since I've already dropped an anvil - per se - on this point enough times now. All I'll say is I think the biggest problem is that it's not really the person role-playing the character alone who should decide what's important and what's not important to mention about their character -- they're not the one who has to [i]react[/i] to this character realistically. This is why character sheets that follow a more grounded format are easier for everyone to work with, not just the individual.

[@tsukune]
While I do agree with you that most of the views being presented here come from personal experience - that's really all that people generally have to go off, honestly - I also think that the validity of the views aren't weakened by it (I'm not saying you don't think this, since you did say everyone was making a valid point, and I certainly wasn't trying to start an argument with any of my posts in this thread -- think of it more as my personal crusade to defend the details). For example, my belief that a person can't realistically write a good response unless the details are presented to them thoroughly (though whether these details need to be presented doesn't need to inherently be in a character sheet, but I don't think we want someone describing their character in every single IC post so having a good character sheet is a better source of research material) isn't only rooted in my own experience, but from an analysis of how someone couldn't react properly without details.

The main reason it's subjective is, in my own opinion, more down to the subjectivity of which role-playing style is the best -- in a 'free' role-play it's probably not relevant that I know the tiniest detail about your facial expression to try and gauge how to react to you, but in an 'advanced' role-play this could make or break my post. The same applies to clothing. While the 'free' role-playing style is not something I could ever see myself doing, it's not 'wrong' for other writers to enjoy it.

[quote=tsukune]
Not sure about others, but I feel that RPing is a good place for me to experiment other aspects of writing and try out new things that it's hard to achieve in solo-storytelling.
[/quote]
Not the point of this thread, but I like that you mentioned this. Now's as good a time as any. I role-play primarily for three reasons:

[list]
[*] To write scenes with [@Ailyn Evensen] that will eventually become material for 'Guardian Ascension' (I guess you can think of this more as collaborative writing than outright role-playing, but we do tend to take it on with the feeling of a role-play), and therefore the role-plays are essentially the storyboarding phase done in a way that's a bit more fun.
[*] To experiment with ideas I feel I can get a better atmosphere of by working with other writers, which usually involves testing out a character in a role-play before I commit to considering them 'ready' to be an official character in my story, but can also be a simulation of sorts to test out the applications of a new power I have in mind -- this is the primary reason that I engage in what would be considered 'arena role-play', but I dislike the ranking system used here and prefer to think of it as a simulation rather than a competition (though, yes, you do sort of need to be trying to beat the opponent in order to fully test the limits of a new power). I believe this second reason is where you and I share motivation, based on your statement.
[*] To have some fun and engage in a community -- essentially the OOC is as important to me as the IC because I consider role-playing a way to grow with people and not just something I do for escapism. This last reason is very closely connected to the other two - especially the first one, since my relationship with Ailyn continually grows stronger thanks to my project allowing us to connect with each other's souls - and also happens to be one of the reasons that I prefer to role-play only with friends and not with people I'm on bad terms with. I have pretty much no interest in role-playing just for its own sake -- to me, role-playing is a way to share my soul with the people who would consider me a friend, and the fact that my soul is mostly rooted in 'Guardian Ascension' is why I usually (not always) only like role-playing in that setting since it's where I feel like I have the most to offer people.[/list]
Also, since you decided to give some additional input (and for once I refreshed the page before posting to actually see it):

[quote=tsukune]
Coming back to the topic about whether attire description is important to describing character's appearance in CS, the way the character dresses themselves is how they carry themselves, which is part of their identity. In real life, who doesn't judge others based on first impression, which includes what they wear in the first meeting? Even in job interviews, it's the sad truth that society deems outward appearance is as important as the resume to increase the chance of getting hired. Again, I'll reiterate that one doesn't need to go into too much detail such as exact color, brand, cloth type, down to the seam of the clothing when describing the attire, just enough to bring out the personality and other hidden beliefs of the character, which are the more important stuff about the character.[/quote]
This offers more good points about what I meant when I said you needed more information about the character's clothing in order to make a realistic portrayal of your reaction. Even if we don't take analytical and tactical elements into the equation - such as looking at person's outfit for potential weapons or indications about their personality - it's also an unfortunate fact that people in real life get stereotyped and judged on their appearance all the time.

People usually make very poor judgements about me in person due to the way I look -- thanks to my 'Einstein hair', tendency to have stubble, and my ethnicity, I usually get stereotyped as a nutjob or a drug dealer. I'll be honest here... There's a fair argument that they're not wrong about the first one, but the second one... seriously...? I've never fucking touched drugs in my life, let alone sold them. I've never even smoked or really had alcohol before. I'm not saying that stereotyping is 'right', but it is [i]realistic[/i]. I think the only reason people don't assume I'm a homeless person sometimes is because I'm usually wearing a dress shirt (not that I wear it in a very formal manner -- I really don't).

Just for the record -- that aforementioned detail about the pocket watch? That's actually [i]based on me in real life[/i]. I personally carry one around with me a lot of the time, due to liking them and also due to hating wristwatches/tight sensations.

While I don't like to debate unless it serves a purpose (if anyone thinks I'm actually arguing in my posts, they're wrong -- this is all just meant to be food for thought), I will play the 'Devil's advocate' here. I think emphasizing the colour of a character's outfit is a very important detail that shouldn't be missed unless the observer happens to be colour blind (depending on the severity). You can also make an assessment about someone's personality to an extent depending on the brand of clothing they're wearing, and also whether the clothing has a certain logo on it (I actually use this latter detail as a bit of foreshadowing at one point very early on in my story). I'm not saying I need to know exactly what material the buttons or seams of your clothing are made of (though, to be fair, I could imagine certain powers or certain tactical details requiring this information), even if a do personally find wearing certain materials uncomfortable (an interesting bit of trivia that could be added to a character's personality), but having as much information about who I'm looking at just makes the character more realistic to me.