[@Shoryu Magami] Insensitive and too much are both matters of opinion. I think it may be possible to be heavy handed even with few details, though I believe it would bring things over into uncomfortably blunt. Like saying "this is your fault" in a delicate situation where the person is responsible or something. *shrug* Heavy-handed comes from the idea of a heavy hand -- a blow, or hitting someone. It's not so much that it's too much of something, but more that what is used is inappropriate for the situation. Again, a punch to the face and not merely an offer. Maybe in terms of writing it's taken on different meanings, but I definitely think you can use a lot of detail and maintain a light touch, if you have the skill. Yeah, it's true that a Sue is highly subjective. I'm actually more likely to use it in the context of an rper's attitude than for a character alone. The problem is more the way the character is treated, and less in the traits of the character themselves. The traits tend to be warning signs -- symptoms, and not the problem. My opinion about most things is that it's all in the execution -- and I have seen a character with enough of the "Sue" traits that anyone who looked at the character blurb probably had red flags going up all over, but he was played so well he was one of my favorites in that rp. In fact, I'd go so far as to say a lot of the "Sue" traits can actually make a character more interesting, if employed with skill. Generally it's a good idea to be sparing and not use a bunch of them without a considered reason. Sorry if I hit a button for you. The point about so-called Sues in real life...hm. I think you're right. Even to the point that a real person might make you go "no way is that really true". I think the issue in writing is that if you stretch suspension of belief too far it will break, and unless that's what you're going for it's a really bad thing to do that. Egregiously Sueish characters can do this. Not to mention many people find them annoying, and depending on the person might dislike a book simply because they dislike a character. *shrugs* Again, it all comes down to personal taste, as you suggested. Ooh, genre labels. Don't get me started here. I'd argue that having a genre (that'd make it genre fiction, right?) is independent of literary fiction, although I'll admit I'm not entirely clear on what literary fiction is. Then again, I hate people who dismiss stuff simply because it's scifi/fantasy, as if that doesn't count as fiction. My opinion is that something can fall under the umbrella of a label but shouldn't be defined by it. Just because it defies expectations doesn't mean it doesn't fall under the umbrella -- and I'm going to stop there since I can feel myself gearing up here. All criticism, in the end, is personal preference. Even to grammar, though that's got more of an official status than other matters. If I recall right, there's a poet out there that uses no caps and little punctuation, but the poetry was still good. Something about a cockroach hopping on a keyboard...? I can't remember. In the context of an rp, I don't think unsolicited opinions can be entirely avoided. People are actively writing with the character/style of other players and the DM, and so should be allowed to express feelings. Bashing is in bad taste. Constructive criticism, or saying their personal feelings, is another matter. And while with a rp there does have to be the option of "well you can write it like that but not here", in general I would hope well-considered critique comes with the understanding that in the end, it is the writer's choice what to do with it. And that includes saying "screw you" -- though I would hope if the reader is polite that it wouldn't be said in so many words. ^.^ Hm, well. If you're just listing details in a paragraph, that tends to bother me more than if you can incorporate them into the story. Your example of the man with the dislike of tight clothing being unhappy in a suit, that would expand the character to me. But introducing him in sweats and then telling me he hates suits is more likely to throw me -- unless, again, you can tie it in well. I think my dislike runs more to chunky paragraphs of description with no regard for how it fits together. Sort of like my opinion of rap. It's not that I dislike rap, though I thought I did. The music and style themselves are quite good, as my love for Hamilton has shown me. But so many rap artists swear every other word and keep talking about banging and shooting and I don't even -- it took a truly stellar example of a different sort of rap to change my bias against the genre. I guess with details when they fit into the story I don't notice them as being shoved in my face, and thus why I keep using detail-heavy in a negative context. It's the shoving I don't like, not the details themselves. The idea of listing all the details as being common courtesy comes with a caveat -- it's only courtesy if you can do it without punching people in the face (which I suppose is also a matter of their opinion, but whatever). If you know a person doesn't like slogging through pages of details, then it's not very nice to make no effort to avoid that. So it's a contextual issue, and dependent upon who you're with. Your detailed response to handling details (*giggling*) has proved very enlightening. I am going to try to avoid my gut reaction to the advanced label, since I think advanced can be shorter posts but very heavy in the lore department. They're connected but not completely dependent upon each other, and the division gets my goat every time, as I've seen the labels used repeatedly for bashing people that do good writing simply because it didn't meet someone else's standard. In an rp context, few people outside of the most verbose writers (and the most voracious readers) are willing to go through pages and pages for a single post. Even in advanced, I've seen upper limits on post length suggested. So it's definitely a niche group you'd be looking for, to be happy. In other cases, because you're working with other people, if a detail that would have been significant is overlooked and comes up later, there are a couple options. You can retcon, which may be possible if it's not too far back. You can handwave and say, for whatever reason, it was overlooked at the time. You can go "well...oops, we've got a hole, but fixing it will leave holes elsewhere, so let's just keep going." In the end it's up to the players to sort out the issues so that everyone is more or less satisfied, however that might be done. For solo writing, as I've said, I prefer details to be woven in, and I do like them but I also have a limit. I don't want to take an hour break to learn about every freckle on someone's face. It's a fine balance between dropping everythign to describe some new character or place, and leaving out details entirely. My personal preference, as stated before, is that the author have the skill to keep things moving as they paint the picture, but I'll enjoy a range of methods. I'm not the most picky of readers. ^.^;; Drawings are entirely different, and if you choose to include them they change the argument significantly. And if you're commissioning an artist, painstakingly thorough details are a plus in most cases, as is the willingness of the artist to tweak an initial sketch to fit the vision of the commissioner. Within reason -- significant changes that aren't errors on the part of the artist may cost more if you make them do a lot of extra work. But I digress. Ooh, playing another person's characters. This can be a fun topic. I've never felt comfortable playing someone else's chars, be they canon from some other media, or belonging to another person. I've gotten a bit more comfortable with portraying Character B if I've rped with them under the control of their player in the past, and I'm using my character from that rp and Char B plays a big part in my char's life or soemthing. I'm always aware, though, that I'm playing /my version/ of Char B, and not truly Char B. ...And at times I've had my version take on a life of their own and start demanding that I pay them more attention, and I'll end up using them separately, but knowing this is a separate entity from the original. I've had people adopt characters of mine, for one reason or another. Mostly my favorite DM, when he's doing solo writing for NaNo set in the world of our group's rp campaigns, or writing interim stories (gods I love it when he does this). And my regard for him and my trust in him as a DM is such that I'm comfortable with this, and he does ask when he has questions about things. But because I trust him, I'm okay with minor inconsistencies, because wow is the story worth it to me. <3 I have to really trust someone to be comfortable with a person adopting my chars, and I found out someone else had...and done them poorly, without my permission, and I'm not completely okay although I do understand why. He's forgiven, but I'm very aware that it's /his/ version of those chars, and not anything resembling mine. Sandy, my favorite DM, tends to be good at keeping it close enough to my version that suspension of disbelief can accommodate the rest. I've also been asked to play a character that had a rough idea established, and then I was to build upon it to make a full character, and I've done this several times. Or I'm asked to play someone so an rp will not be a player talking to themselves all the time. I am willing, with the understanding that I'm not going to play it how the creator will play it, and the character is going to change under my direction.