I suppose I can do one of those mega posts I used to do again, all for fun. In this case, I think I'm going to dissect arguments. [b]*Grabs surgical gloves*[/b] :p

[quote=IRLGoat]
Aahhh, I think... there are many ways to slice this topic. As a girl, I can confidently say sexism is alive and well in the geek community.[/quote]

Alright. Lets see what sources, argumentation, and illustrations you use. 

[quote=IRLGoat]The problem is most dudes seem to have the same beliefs. That it isn't really the most vital topic, or that it is "typically not all that big an issue".[/quote]

Generally though it isn't. Women have the same rights as men across all games so far as I'm aware. (Or at least 99.99% of them.) Sexism is portrayed primarily and purely from individual community members.

There are some systemic issues I'm happy to discuss and grant ground on, like the vast majority of women are portrayed as sexually attractive while men can come in all shapes and sizes (though the majority still tend to fit the grizzled eight pack soldier subtype). There's also the issue of how to write a strong female character without assigning attributes that are traditionally masculine in a writing community that is still trying to figure out how video game writing... [i]Works[/i].

[quote=IRLGoat]Being a male in a male-dominant community makes it hard for you to empathize on our part, so I can understand... sorta...[/quote]

Except no. This is basing the argument on the idea that men cannot empathize with being the minority when the nerd community in general is a minority. Most, if not all people who are active in the community, have been bullied for it. Verbally abused, ostracized, or even physically assaulted. Regardless of gender, nerds are generally capable of understanding what it feels like to be the outcast in the room.

[quote=IRLGoat]Claiming that is isn't a big deal because it can happen to guys as well is also kinda... dumb.[/quote]

Why? How is that dumb? Men can be shot, women can be shot, this does not make guns sexist and the argument invalid.

[quote=IRLGoat]Claiming that "anything can happen to anyone, it just happened to happen to a girl" doesn't make sense.[/quote]

Repeating oneself?

[quote=IRLGoat]Because it almost always happens to girls. I highly doubt many guys get "You're faking it!" before "Cool shirt, bro!".[/quote]

I've been called a faker before and I'm a hardcore enough Trekkie that I've watched every single episode of every single series ever released. It happens to everyone. I will concede that it probably happens to women more often though because a lot of guys in general tend to be absolutely dumbfoundedly stupid around women. :rolleyes

[quote=IRLGoat]Nor will they have their interests questioned... in order to prove their legitimacy like they're some sort of super secret spy woman.[/quote]

Repeat?

[quote=IRLGoat]My personal experience in attempting to join a geek community have been generally very poor. We have several card/hobby shops in the city. I have attended events in the past for M:TG games and after participating in one at each card shop, I stopped going. I love Magic. I love playing it. But it was so immensely awkward, I couldn't stand to go. It felt like I was an outsider, interrupting their fun. There are either guys trying to impress me with their knowledge, guys constantly correcting me or treating me like I had never played the fucking game before.[/quote]

Well I'm sorry for your personal experience, but guys try to impress other guys and constantly correct each other or treat each other like total n00bs. That happens. It's very normal. Again, look to any gaming community with regular balance updates, like League of Legends--you will get [i]tons[/i] of it no matter how logical or experienced you are. You could be MLG. You could have won a five million dollar tournament. Other nerds will still question your knowledge and try to one up you.

[quote=IRLGoat]So I said screw that. I've been on Gaia Online since 2004, and have had a male avatar for the vast majority of that. People would take you and your writing more seriously if you were even guised as a male.[/quote]

Never seen this personally. None of my female friends have ever been taken less seriously for their gender concerning writing or role playing save in extreme cases and I've been RPing for over a decade now. Sorry but I'd say you just ran through a serious stroke of bad luck.

[quote=IRLGoat]I've been told on LoL that I wasn't a girl. Sometimes it's even the girls themselves.[/quote]

LoL community isn't exactly the greatest, shining example of humanity out there. In fact I deliberately warn people to stay out of the tribunal unless they want to hate humanity for life. :hehe

Though, not to be offensive or insensitive, but I don't see how being disbelieved would be hurtful concerning your gender. Your gender shouldn't matter at all concerning LoL, right? I mean you're there to play as a champion who kills other champions, takes objectives, and wins games. Your IRL identity is entirely irrelevant towards this goal, shameful as it is that others treated you poorly.

I mean I was told to kill myself on that game by some raging twelve year old. It's best not to take things said there seriously or you will go rabid with rage within a few hours.

Though, if you still play, hit me up sometime. I'm always eager to find more people to play with from RPG.

[quote=IRLGoat]I tried to join a local anime/cosplay group and was essentially alienated from everyone.[/quote]

Holy crap seriously? O.o Wow now that -is- bad luck! I sincerely know more female fans who are into cosplaying and anime than male fans, like Kagamine. 

[quote=IRLGoat]So I left that too.[/quote]

Hmm...

[quote=IRLGoat]My experience has taught me to hide my interests, or at least speak very little about them.[/quote]

Well I'm sorry about that. I'm glad you're talking about it now though. I'm sure that such experiences haven't soured your view towards gaming as a whole and won't cause you to make extreme generalizations about the entire multi-billion dollar indust-- 

[quote=IRLGoat]Games have objectified and sexualized women to outrageous ends.[/quote]

Dammit.

[quote=IRLGoat]And let's not get started on Suureee, anyone can pick up a controller and play a game.[/quote]

... Because anyone can? Regardless of their age, gender, race, or otherwise? The only determination I can think of is financial. Poor people won't own as many games, consoles, etc, as rich people will. That's... About it really. Anyone can play as Mario saving Peach, or play Mirror's Edge and jump from rooftop to rooftop, or Civilization V as a tyrannical version of Gandhi or a peace loving version of Catherine. That's the main thing games have going for them, really, is... Anyone can. If they choose to.

[quote=IRLGoat]It is the responsibility of other players to make a girl feel comfortable and welcome.[/quote]

Wut. No. It is not the responsibility of the player to make another player feel comfortable and welcome. This would be like saying that everyone in the movie theater should make sure everyone else in the movie theater is 100% comfortable and welcome. No, that's the job of the staff, that's the job of the people running the game to decide what level of comfort they wish to enforce. The players, audience members, or otherwise, have paid [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsqJFIJ5lLs]to be entertained[/url]. That is all. Anything beyond that is up to them to decide. 

Now. That isn't to say that they shouldn't do these things. Frankly a community should always be welcoming of new members if it wants to survive long term. They should, but they're not directly responsible to do so.

[quote=IRLGoat]Which is hard cause most nerds don't exactly have the most experience with girls and think being a "nice guy" makes them the cats pajamas.[/quote]

Aren't you basically asking guys to be nice though? Isn't that the whole point of this, is that guys are sexist because they assume you don't know anything and what not? So wouldn't nice guys basically... Stop doing that? Listen to you when you ask them to stop, and what not?

If you mean fake niceness, well, this extends above and beyond geek culture into masculine culture, chivalry and its consequences, and that is... An entirely different topic.

[quote=IRLGoat]Although there are several things you've mentioned that are silly for me to hear from a guy but I'm going to focus on this one.[/quote]

"Silly to hear from a guy", you know, that's sexist, implying that my gender makes those statements silly... ;) 

[quote=IRLGoat]This is really... not a great way to look at this subject. You have now turned the blame from the sexist male community and pointed the finger at the girls who "silly enough" to mention they are girls.[/quote]

I'm finger pointing? I stated that your background is irrelevant unless you bring it up: Regardless of your gender, political affiliations, religious beliefs, ethnicity, sexuality, or otherwise. This doesn't justify bullying, nor does it implicate that the victims should be blamed.

I mean, I, personally, am an atheist for example. I could go ahead and state that in a church, loud and proud, but I shouldn't be surprised if some people take offense to that, or some further still, try to convert me to their religious affiliation of choice. I'm in a church. This is to be expected.

[quote=IRLGoat]That's like saying, "You wanna receive not-hate online? Just pretend you're a young, healthy, rich, white male from the US! Simple as that!"[/quote]

Wut. No. Don't pretend that you're anything. Just stay anonymous. Don't bring your personal life up onto the Internet. That's generally a fantastic no no anyway except amongst people you consider friends. I mean would you walk into the middle of the street and start telling random strangers about your personal life, or personal beliefs? No? So why do that on the Internet, which is full of hateful scumbags who like to troll people?

Background is irrelevant =/= pretending to be anything. It's simply irrelevant, pointless, you don't need to bring it up, you don't need to pretend to be anything. That's the magical wonder of the Internet, and by extension, online gaming.

Here. An example, a personal example: I have depression, and a couple other mental disorders. Some people on this site know about them. Some even make fun of me for it, or dehumanize me for it. I opened myself up to that the moment I announced I had these things. Is it right? No. Of course not. Did I have to share my personal life with random strangers who otherwise don't give a shit about me? No. Of course not. I chose to, and I live with the consequences of that.

If you want to fight the good fight, that's fine, hell I'll support you, more open female gamers would be awesome even though I know shit tons of them because hey why not, but be prepared for the consequences of that decision.

[quote=IRLGoat]This fosters a toxic community.[/quote]

It fosters an anonymous community, like on Roleplayer Guild. 

[quote=IRLGoat]And sure, we can say, "Well there will always be trolls online! Girls can't complain because males get hated on too!" But it's different hate.[/quote]

No offense but not really. Hate is hate, regardless of the kind, it's abhorrent behaviour. There is no such thing as a special kind of hatred. This ties back into that statement earlier about how I'm a guy and I must have a hard time empathizing: Erm, well, not really. I fully understand what it's like to be discriminated against. I, too, am a minority in some communities I choose to partake in. We are all minorities. Every single person belongs to at least one minority and will get bullied for it at least once in their lives. I don't know a single person, male or female, rich or poor, kind or cold, soft or hard, weak or strong, black or white, or otherwise, who hasn't been bullied at least once.

Please don't try to feign that the hatred against you for your gender is in some way different or incomprehensible to me. I fully understand hatred.

[quote=IRLGoat]This hate makes us feel like our interests aren't justified, that we're not "legit" enough to play with the boys.[/quote]

... "We"? Again, I know plenty of girl gamers that while they've experienced sexism, don't feel like their interests aren't justified or legit enough. They don't give a rat's fuck what the sexists think about them and frankly that's the best way to combat it. Play the same games, mop the floor with them, bruise their egos. Don't let the boys bully you off the playground game of dodgeball sister, throw the ball in their face and scream HEADSHOT! :p 

[quote=IRLGoat]I've been pretty fortunate since I surround myself with 90% male friends and they're all A1 people. SO YES. I understand that "not all guys are jerks".[/quote]

Thank you!

[quote=IRLGoat]We can stop reiterating that. It's the guys who are being condescending and disrespectful without even realizing they're doing it.[/quote]

Inform them if they don't know they're doing it. Knowledge trumps ignorance.

[quote=IRLGoat]I think the largest problem in the geek community is the disbelief that sexism is happening.[/quote]

I think it's pretty universally acknowledged that sexism exists in the community, but it's the degree to which it exists that is in question, and what effect that has on the female part of the community.

[quote=IRLGoat]EDIT: OH RIGHT.Alllrriigghhhtt. I don't know about you or anyone you know, but my gender really is a part of my identity. Like . Your identity is comprised of what you are. A trait is a distinguishing quality. I really doubt many girls would say, "I think my best quality is my vagina for making me a girl." I identify as a female Canadian geek. My traits and qualities make up my personality. Just a thought...[/quote]

It's a single part of the whole is what I was getting at. When you're in a group, the best method by which to inspire equality is to appeal to common interest and gain respect through that. ex: You're a gamer, they're gamers, use gamer reference, metaphor, lingo. Leave your gender at the door of anonymity, as that isn't where you will find common ground.

[quote=Cayden Black]Although I can't write a whole synapse on this subject, I can state my opinion.Sexism in any factor is wrong.[/quote]

Agreed? I don't think that was in question. 

[quote=Cayden Black]Now I may believe some things men do better and some women do better but I can't name them off the top of my head and besides, thats more down to physical design than anything else.[/quote]

Biologically: Men tend to have greater upper body strength, women tend to have greater endurance (especially against blood loss, go figure). Men have up to 20 times more testosterone, women have more estrogen, each of these things tends to grant more or less masculine or feminine physical qualities, and so on.

This doesn't usually stop, say, a woman from becoming a firefighter, or a man from being a care giver. One is simply ordinarily better equipped than the other to deal with it. Thankfully for a sexually dimorphic species we tend to be extremely similar across the board in terms of maximum capabilities. Gogo evolution!

[quote=Cayden Black]As for geek level, well, I have a very dam geeky sister but she doesn't know anything about the games or sci fi I play and watch but I don't know anything really about her D&D games or Eragorn books (though she still begs me to read them). We are all geeks in our own way it just depends on the field of study you prefer. I like HALO, Gears and fantasy/sci fi. She has similar interests but not in Gears or HALO.In short, we're all geeks, just accept you work in a different department!
[/quote]

Yeah pretty much.

[quote=ASTA]
Never knew this shit was this serious.
[/quote]

Concerns one of the big four, it will always be serious.

[quote=thinkertron2000]Feminism is something that's super crazy important to me (I'm likely to loose an old High School friend over it), but I'm going to have to try to keep this brief, because most of the problems with geek culture are either written here, or understood by this community.[/quote]

Well that's kind of you, thank you. I'm sure now we're going to have a very pleasant debate in which you don't call out individual people and tell them about how terrible they're being just because their opinion is different from yo--

[quote=thinkertron2000]Jorrick, is I'm sure, a nice guy who means well, but dude? We're not asking you to treat women better than men, just that you stop treating them worse then men, or at least to stop using gendered words, like "slut", "whore", "bitch" and so on.[/quote]

welpfuck. 

[quote=thinkertron2000]Using these targets them AS WOMEN, rather than as just someone you don't like, and this is a super important distinction.[/quote]

Just like how all manner of insults are used against all manner of people whether true or false? People will target you based on your physical or psychological characteristics. It's a weak, pathetic bully tactic, but it won't go away so long as people still have egos to bruise. Women are not singled out in this treatment by any stretch of the imagination, nor is this exclusively in geek culture.

[quote=thinkertron2000]It sends the message that they're not welcome because they are women, and that they shouldn't be playing these games, or reading those comics, or whatever your flavour of geek is.Western culture is already extremely unfair to women, we don't need people taking away safe spaces for women.[/quote]

Men have 40% longer jail terms for the same crimes. Women nearly always win child custody. In rape cases, men are more likely than women to be charged and convicted, even in cases where there is normally insufficient evidence to constitute a solid case for any other type of crime. In the media, women raping men is not only considered acceptable, it's considered acceptable enough to put in [i]comedies[/i]. In cases of physical abuse, the man is usually assumed to be the assailant. If a man hits a woman, it's considered morally reprehensible, but if a woman hits a man, and the man doesn't take it like a man, then the man is pathetic.

I could go on, and on, and on, all day. Things suck for both genders depending on what part of society you are talking about. HOWEVER! Things are better now than they ever have been in the entirety of human history in the first world for women concerning the race for equality. Is society perfect? No. Does it still need work? Of course, it probably always will, but that being said, women achieved significant victories, to the point that calling western society significantly unfair towards women over men is... Well... It's nonsense.

Sorry. :(

[quote=thinkertron2000]"Dick" does not equal to any of those words, largely because men aren't as as maligned as women are, and "bitch" as an insult for men is still sexist against women.[/quote]

Because men insult men all the time. We're insulted to this sort of thing, it's part of male subculture. We mock each other, poke fun or do it seriously. It's part of our competitive nature.

Also, no, calling a man a bitch is not sexist against women. Bitch has lost all meaning at this point. It's just a vulgarity along the lines of shit and fuck and cunt. You can use them against anyone for anything.

[quote=thinkertron2000]When you call a man a "bitch", what you means is that he's like a woman, submissive and incompetent.hahahahaHAHAHAH![/quote]

Erm, are you okay? Manic laughter is not a good sign for mental health.

Also, "bitch" actually originally meant to be compared to a female dog. An animal. Something that drools, is unsophisticated, that smells.

[quote=thinkertron2000]I love guys like this, people who've never actually spoken to a feminist, nor read any feminist articles.[/quote]

I've read plenty of feminist articles. My ex was a feminist, she and I still talk as friends though we don't get along on some key points that doesn't stop us from being [i]friends[/i].

[quote=thinkertron2000]You're adorable.[/quote]

Ad hominems do not help your arguments.

[quote=thinkertron2000]Look, one of the biggest tenants of feminism is getting rid of gender rolls, and a patriarchal* society, both of which certainly hurt women, but they hurt men as well.[/quote]

A patriarchal society is one in which men are dominant over women. If this was true, why would we spend more on breast cancer research than prostate cancer research? Why would women take preference over men where it concerns blindly having to choose in saving lives? (ex: If you have to choose between saving a woman or saving a man, you save the woman. The man is always left to die, he's a disposable cog in the murder machine.) Ever heard the phrase "women and children to the life rafts"?

Women can vote. Women can freely voice their opinions, gain funding, and run for political office. Women can be judges and juries. Women can set laws, and work any jobs they so choose.

Women are equal to men in nearly every capacity. What's left over is tweaks to the system that need to be done over time to keep the system healthy, and move forward towards further equality.

Also I think you meant role*. Although gender rolls sound delicious.

[quote=thinkertron2000]It's because of gender rolls[/quote]

roles* sorry, I can't help it. 

[quote=thinkertron2000]that women get the children in divorces more often (well, that and a higher amount of male abusers than female),[/quote]

Isn't it convenient to point out that men are more abusive than women... On record... ;) 

[quote=thinkertron2000]it's because of a patriarchal society that male victim rape is so often ignored (also the same reason that female victim rape is ignored).[/quote]

That doesn't even make logical sense. Why would a society run by men for the benefit of men ignore the plights of men. That's like if a king ruled an entire kingdom and did so for the benefit of his enemies?... 

[quote=thinkertron2000]Do you want to know why feminists rarely talk about male problems? BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY FEWER OF THEM THAN FEMALE PROBLEMS. It's not that hard you guys.[/quote]

Or... Bare with me... It's because of a victim complex that makes it convenient to view the world in black and white and give blatant and obvious targets that are otherwise incorporeal and non-existent for the purposes of making life and all its problems simpler. Why can't I get a job? Patriarchy! Why do I feel depressed? Patriarchy! Why can't I get everything I want in life? Patriarchy!!!

The reality of the situation is this: The entire world is a series of greys. Nobody is perfectly good, nobody is perfectly evil. Even Hitler had moral standards for fucks sake: He refused to use mustard gas despite its effectiveness in the trenches of WW I because he found it immoral after it had been used on him when he was a soldier in the German army. No, there isn't an all-powerful world-wide patriarchy that for some reason ignores the plights of men while being ruled by men for the benefit of men. The world is simply a painful place full of unfortunate shit.

Now, we... -Could- keep blaming it on something that, statistically speaking, doesn't exist... Or we could address each issue one by one and repair them over time. Identify definite problems, and fix the ones we can fix. The rest we have to live with and tolerate as simply being part of life. There will always be bigots and sexists and racists and so on. There will always be people who think I should be dead because I'm an atheist or because I have depression and that makes me weak, or because I'm white and that makes me evil, or because I'm male and that makes me an oppressor. I don't let these things bother me. They're empty words from pitiable people.

It's when rights are threatened through laws, through the very protections in society, that we should feel threatened.

I'm not saying to ignore problems. I'm saying to identify shit we can fix, fix it, and simply deal with the rest as the unfortunate consequence of life, instead of blaming an all powerful, all convenient entity that, well, scientifically speaking... Doesn't exist.[quote=Zed]
As an unbiased opinion, I think this whole argument (read: the back and forth between certain people advocating feminism or whatever and the logical thinking people such as Yorick and Brovo, who are advocating for fucking equality all around) is retarded.Like, seriously.Go do something decent with your time, instead of retardedly attacking Brovo and Yorick's opinion (which is actually logical and straight-forward as opinions go) in a never-ending circlejerk of a thread.EDIT: Seriously, anything is better than posting in this circlejerk of a thread.Now then, time to go back to writing up my Tabletop RPG System.EDIT V2.0:I win the thread.
[/quote]

You're not helping. :lol