[quote=@Vilageidiotx] I'm not saying the market has no utility at all, I'm saying that the market isn't designed for long-term research on its own and requires subsidy* to work. The market is one tool, not the entire tool kit. Also, I dislike the shit out of bailouts too, and I think shit like the Auto industry bailout was unnecessary (though politically useful I'm sure). I also think the bankers being rewarded was a despicable injustice and the bankers themselves who drove the housing collapse should have been booted into abject poverty for what they pulled. But I do have to say that the bank bailout itself was necessary* Without it, the entire financial system would have caved in completely. That is insanely dangerous, especially in an economy as financialized as ours, and one where we rely on so much specialization that makes returning from a full depression very difficult. [/quote] Subsidies are not needed for businesses to run efficiently. (Wasn't even looking for it, but the links are right.) https://www.mercatus.org/publication/subsidies-are-problem-not-solution-innovation-energy http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/energy-subsidies-dont-work-dont-try-telling-poor https://www.the-american-interest.com/2014/02/21/why-elaborate-green-subsidies-dont-work/ http://review.chicagobooth.edu/magazine/spring-2016/many-entrepreneurs-dont-need-subsidies (Here's one about just business in general opposed to energy.) I also disagree that the bailouts were good or necessary either, because that kind of thing is my point. That if the government promises to pay, they will inevitably charge more. That's why college is so expensive, it's why the housing market crashed. https://www.forbes.com/sites/johntamny/2011/03/06/necessary-bank-bailouts-harm-the-economy-wreck-the-banks/#1362722b2602 https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/may/18/us-economy-bank-bailout [quote=@Vilageidiotx] You can draw some fucked up quotes from the other guy too (lord knows we've heard them enough to not need repeat them). Point being that the black and white "All Dems are feminist cucks and all Reps are MAGA" is over simplistic. [/quote] I suppose so, though I'm not the one defending a politician who has way more money than me. :P Well like I said, most of the right also seem to be hating on Trump plenty too...unlike Obama where the left outright ignored him/barely even made fun of his administration, for his first term. [quote=@Vilageidiotx] http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Corporate-Profit-Margins-and-Employee-Compensation-Q2.gif This belies the argument in those articles that capitalists aren't being allowed to create jobs by an evil government that is regulating them to death. Such a world would be one where profit follows wages downward. What we've seen instead is a capitalism that has been able to cut workers out. Neo-Liberalism hasn't helped - it has destroyed the labor movements, weakened mid twentieth century regulation on the financial system so people can play unsustainable games with money, and as a result wages are fucked. Personally, I suspect that automation has done a big part of this too; [url=https://systemicdisorder.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/productivity-chart-1948-2013.png]we see that productivity hasn't suffered[/url]. Automation isn't so much about replacing all jobs as it is about driving down the cost of labor, which breaks the traditional capitalist relationship because the only way labor can participate in an idealistic market system is through labor, and anything that slows down that damages wealth access among the majority (giving us that annoying media trend that is "why r millenials not spending?") [/quote] The site itself would of been more useful than just the chart itself. (2nd link said file not found?) Also that first chart doesn't point out if it's before or after taxes. Another reason why GDP has gone so high up for companies. https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/05/07/why-have-corporate-profits-been-rising-as-a-percentage-of-gdp-globalisation/#64ece9fd2a6e And I suppose I don't know where you stand, you point out to not wanting to stop the future progress. But automation, is a part of that. (and also they need maintenance and it's not just killing jobs. Be more accurate to say we're shifting them.) I'm not saying there isn't some problems here, it's kind of fucked up my parents haven't received raises in quite a long ass time. But I feel it's also a bit more complicated than blaming it solely on the system itself. [quote=@Vilageidiotx] This is to say again that the market system is not God. It doesn't fix all problems and answer every situation perfectly. It's as much an imperfect institution as any other. And it can, of course, change depending on the circumstances. [/quote] Of course not. But this system is about as fair, as it can get when it's not being abused. It works on everyone's own merits and contribution to society and clearly has worked better than other systems, given America's success with it. [quote=@Vilageidiotx] Ehh... he was also President of his father's business and had his father's business contacts and, of course, name. He didn't branch into a new industry to make his billions. Shit, he didn't even branch into a new city. He just went to a different borough of NYC. The point isn't that he is evil for having been an aristocrat. The point is that he is an aristocrat, not a self made man. [/quote] [color=ed1c24]"He didn't even branch into a new city."[/color] I really, really don't see how that's relevant. He's apart (or attempted to be) in a ton of different industries, whether they failed or not... Yeah, yeah 'you didn't build that' kind of deal. But I still really don't see that being all that true or relevant to his success. Most businesses aren't "made by itself", but someone DOES need to take the risk. He clearly was the one to do that and he seems more successful as a business man than not. (Now whether any of this actually translates to "president worthy" is debatable. But if someone is going to bash Trump, the fact that his Trump Organization alone, employees 22,450 people and makes 9.5 billion in revenue. And has been in business for 90 plus years. Shouldn't be it.) https://townhall.com/columnists/bryancrabtree/2016/01/29/think-trumps-bankruptcies-make-him-unqualified-thats-foolish-n2111401 [quote=@Vilageidiotx] Like I said, you guys have your own demons too, politics ain't "Left is all bad right is all good." [/quote] Uh...This kid (and I swear he does not appear to be 18 and up.) Told me, "youtubers are greedy because others freely support them with money." And also tried defending communism perspectives...That's about as right leaning economically. As jumping off a building, to stop yourself from polluting the earth. :/ [i]But yes, #NotAll.[/i] [quote=@Vilageidiotx] Eh, aside from the Estonian kid flipping your off, we're doing a pretty good job here. And really, this is common politics on the ground. Not everybody following politics is an SJW or a White Nationalist. Most of us on both sides are just regular motherfuckers going to work and about our business. [/quote] I didn't mean for that statement to be a personal statement. I'm not talking about this forum when I say that. It's outside of this, it's a wider scope, but it's still everywhere. You just need to not hide yourself from it. To find it. I know most people are normal people, with normal lives. But many people seem to try to demonize the other side, and not just that but everyone in general. I know you somehow still don't think this election has been much more toxic and hateful on both sides. (especially one.) But yeah my mind won't change on that either. But yes, these conversations are fine.