[quote=Ollumhammersong] no problem. its just I never build characters off optimization. If I did half of ym characters wouldn't exist. I build to make intentional challenges to myself. I find out of combat more amusing than in combat for D&D and I build my characters according to those tastes. [/quote] fair enough though are you going to at least use of your LA? I can think of a few templates that don't change your character outwardly that fit well with being a wizard of thay. [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm]Phrenic[/url] creatures are otherwise normal creatures whose minds are more powerful than those of their fellows. +2 LA; +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha; some nifty psionic things (power resistance, psi-like abilties as you level up (which you can always pass off as a natural magic aptitude) [url=http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/spellwarped.shtml]Spellwarped[/url] creatures represent creatures changed by magic (khaos god, perhaps?). LA +3, 2 Natural Armor, Spell Resistance, spell [i]absorption[/i] (if a spell doesn't hit you because you resisted it, you get a neat bonus!), +2 Str +2 Dex +4 Con +4 Int there you go you got a wizard of thay with +2 STR +2 DEX +4 CON +6 INT +2 WIS +4 CHA, Power/Spell Resistance that increases with HD, Natural Armor, Spell Absorption, and neat psi-like power progression for LA 5 neither explicitly changes outward appearance as a human, and gives you some neat boons. Again, I just want to help, because I feel like Omega's going to be throwing some pretty strong stuff at us. I understand wanting to focus more on out of combat stuff (hey, I'm a bard! that's my focus too), but I don't want your Red Wizard to die before he gets to even become a Red Wizard. --- Omega, what Campaign name should we use for rolls so they're sorted nicely on the rolling website?