[quote=@POOHEAD189] You're literally voicing an opinion to make a discussion or argument. That is what we are doing.[/quote] It wasn't an argument until you started disagreeing with my opinions, which I'm now backing up. I wasn't making an opinion to start an argument, I was answering the topic at hand. Snipily, sure, but still. I wasn't giving a straw man because there wasn't an argument or debate going on when I posted initially. [quote]The core fundamental design of the game is the and usually in a game there is a learning curve and a few levels you need to grind through before you're more or less free, but as soon as you leave Helgen you have all of skyrim to explore.[/quote] Ah, but that IS the learning curve. It introduces you to all three basic trees of Red, Blue, and Green, you probably get a level up or at the very least close to one which imparts how the level up mechanic works, you get your combat tutorial, and even a lesson in stealth with the bear at the end. It's the same thing with Oblivion's intro except Skyrim is mercifully shorter at the expense of having a far longer scripted section with the cart ride and the dragon shit. Skyrim is not a deep game mechanically which is why Helgen is all a player needs before they understand literally how everything in the game works except maybe speechcraft. But who the fuck needs that, right? Sidebar: Really want to break your immersion from the start? When you climb the tower right after you get control and Alduin breaks the tower, just don't move and let him burn you. [quote]Skyrim is open ended on how you can complete those quests. It's not open ended because it gives you quests that no one has ever seen (hence why no one has ever seen them), it's how you do it. Dual wielding spells, using different shouts to your tactical advantage, and random encounters in a huge ass world to find them in.[/quote] But again, that doesn't forgive the problem that is the quest design as a whole. Being able to kill a bandit leader in a different way doesn't make the experience any more worthwhile the second or third time around. At some point, killing something with a hammer is no different than killing something with double fireballs if the end result is still the same exact three door spinning puzzle with a claw-like thing. It becomes a game of "Bandit, Vampire, or Mage" when you go into a cave and then "Okay how many draugr will there be here? Probably a dragon shout at the end of this then". When you stumble upon some falmer or dwemer shit it's a welcome change because it's something different - which is why the exploration aspect is the most enjoyable bit, especially for a first time through. But when you've gone through it multiple times, which I'm sure people have, the more glaring shortcuts appear and the exploration no longer has that same appeal. Which is probably when people start doing roleplay runs or specific builds which, admittedly, does add to the game but should I reward the game for making me want to only engage with a specific or minimal amount of its content? The fundamental Skyrim experience won't change because you decided to be a mage instead of a sword person. Mods do but this is strictly the game as it exists without enhancements. [quote]However, so as not to get off point, yes. Many of the quests are fetch or kill quests, but as I said earlier that's not in any way, shape, or form calling Skyrim bad. That's like saying "well in Halo all you do is pull the trigger." As I said, that's exaggerating the flaws to make the game seem like it's worse than it truly is, and you could do it with anything.[/quote] The quests themselves are not the sole factor in why I think Skyrim is a bad game. They are a contributing factor. And you could say that in Halo all you do is pull the trigger but Halo isn't an RPG nor does it have side quests and thus, in the first trilogy anyway, the moment to moment gameplay is different. And it's a fundamentally different argument anyway since this is about flaws (of which Halo has its share as well). But for the sake of argument, you could say the same about Halo that you defend about Skyrim. It's open ended on how you complete a level. You can choose which weapon(s) to use or turn on modifiers for a different experience or even play it with other people but the fundamental experience won't change on repeat runs through the campaign because you'll still have to play through the god damn Library in Halo 1 and you'll still have to fucking play the fucking Cortana level with the fucking Flood in Halo 3. Skyrim is a sandbox that doesn't have the decency to fill up the box all the way but still tells you to have fun building your whatevers. Some people get a lot of mileage out of that sand but it's still lacking. [quote]While I can't say you're wrong because it's simply your opinion on it being uninteresting, I can say the numbers disagree with you. The number of players, the fact that it's been on the top 20 most played games of steam every day for the past 6 years, and all of the rewards it has, and the fact its still selling show it is interesting. If you don't find it interesting, just say that and don't call it inherently bad. I think the lore is Bamf and so do many.[/quote] It's still selling because Bethesda keeps putting it out on consoles and because it's practically free whenever there's a sale going on on Steam. Number of players isn't an argument for quality the same way that a movie being the top grossing movie of a year doesn't mean it's a good movie. There are people that adore Skyrim. There are people that haven't played it. There are people that think Skyrim is the greatest game ever made and they are allowed to think that just the same as I'm allowed to never really go to them for an opinion on something. There are people for whom Skyrim is a meaningful game for a variety of reasons. Now substitute Skyrim in the above paragraph for Halo or ANY game and it can likely apply. How many of those people on Steam are playing Skyrim in its vanilla state? How many of them are playing it with the Requiem overhaul which fundamentally changes the entire game down to the combat mechanics? Skyrim with mods vastly improves the experience. Some people play Skyrim to fuck around with weird ass anime porn mods. How many people are still playing Skyrim on the Xbox 360 or Playstation 3? Just because Skyrim is still getting played doesn't mean it's the same Skyrim from 2011. I do think Skyrim is uninteresting and that's because Bethesda is better at lore (unless it's Fallout which wasn't even theirs to begin with) than they are at storytelling. I'm allowed to think Skyrim is a bad game and I have my reasons for thinking that. My thinking Skyrim is a bad game because the story is uninteresting, though part of it is because of how little is done with its more interesting parts like the Civil War. [quote] I was simply saying that hit at Bethesda wasn't bringing any merit to the argument when we're talking about the game and not the developer, and if we [i]were[/i], then well, it's good to note that a lot of developers are like that. [/quote] It does bring merit because Bethesda style games are basically in their own genre within the larger WRPG genre the same way that 'Ubisoft open world' is basically its own thing that constantly gets derided because it's climbing towers. Bethesda has proven with just its last two releases alone (Fallout 4, Skyrim) that they're less about compelling gameplay experiences and more about giving the idea that there's a lot to do when there actually isn't. Fallout 4's settlement shit is just Skyrim's radiant quests. Skyrim got rid of a lot of the more systems and crafting mechanics of Oblivion which already gutted spell crafting and such compared to Morrowind; Fallout 4 got rid of entire systems to make everything homogeneous and remove player agency. Bethesda pulls the wool over the eyes of the consumer with the promise of open world freedom and then they forget to craft a reason to care about or invest yourself in the world. They make their games to appeal to as wide an audience as possible and in so doing sacrifice a lot of actual, genuine, true player choice and freedom. Skyrim is the Bethesda version of No Man's Sky.