[quote=@catchamber] [@mdk] The gardener did force the tree to grow, because the apple tree has no choice but to respond to its environment in ways that the gardener can already predict and control. In the same fashion, a deity that created everything and knows everything forces us to act as they dictate, because they set us and our environment up in ways that would produce results they can predict and control. [/quote] It's a simplification to demonstrate a concept, which is this: the tree does anything the tree wants to do. Without exercising control over the tree, the gardener can benefit the tree without the tree's knowledge or comprehension. In what way does this infringe upon the tree's free will? It's a part of a plan, yes, its ends are predictable and known, yes. None of that matters to the tree. The tree just trees, in the way that a person persons. If the predictability of outcomes precludes free will, then you don't need an omnipotent being to destroy your free will. If that's true, there's no such thing as free will in, say, socialism, or a cancer ward. But I don't buy that.