[quote=@tex] I should probably clarify just in case it's been lost in the discussion, as is the situation with most improvised argument. I think that it's short sighted to come to a [i]conclusion[/i] that the perspective [i]against[/i] diversity is all-encompassing, or even remotely large when contrasted with those who simply don't care/enjoy the changes.[/quote] It's not all encompassing. But to act like it's not a common talking point is ridiculous. If I came to the conclusion that "there are frequent conversations where people are actively opposed to the diversity shown in games" it's because those conversations were happening even before things like Ellie kissing someone in front of an audience of thousands. There's always going to be people that don't know what an E3 is but who play games and those who play games based solely on word of mouth - but those people aren't being discussed here because they aren't involved in conversations or criticisms. [quote]Sorry if I sound excessively doubtful or presumptuous here, but from the sound of it, you're coming to an incomplete conclusion based on biased and inconclusive sources. I don't mean to bash your opinion, but it sounds as nothing more than just that: An opinion. There's nothing wrong with that, but I'm not sure if we're addressing the topic in the same fashion. Though to be fair, the burden of proof lays with you. If we were to treat this as an argument, and not just an exchange of opinion, I'm fairly certain that any evidence that you could provide would be hearsay. All of your conclusions are in fact, conjecture.[/quote] My opinion that there exists conversations and people in the umbrella of gamer are, in fact, actually upset over diversity? Even if it's a small percent it's still happening widely enough to be noticed and remarked upon in articles. Just because it's a minority doesn't make it invalid. [quote]1. Is it? If so, isn't that cherry picking? I don't associate the minority on social media with any more than a fraction of the gaming market, regardless of genre/producer. Even if it wasn't, why is this group important?[/quote] If it's cherry picking to specifically talk about the group in question. The group is important because it's the group of consumer who stays informed and interacts with the developer or other similarly interested parties. It's because it's the same group that watches Twitch streamers that the publisher of a game has given early copies to in order to advertise. Gaming is a very broad hobby and gamers are a broad demographic. It's not the person who plays Clash of Clans every day or the person who only plays Madden or even the person that walks into a store and browses that companies are putting the majority of their marketing towards. [QUOTE]2. It's not hard to find reactions and comments from people stating a variety of inane nonsense, that's why we call it propaganda though. Whether it be ''''news'''' on Hilary Clinton, Gaming, or political activism. The bottom line is, any evidence pulled from Social media on a scale that is less than [i]absolute[/i] amounts to conjecture [i]at best,[/i] hearsay at worst.[/quote] Oh, so it's just 'propaganda' and not worth commenting or discussing about. That makes it easier to ignore and pretend like it's not happening. Does it absolutely dominate all conversation about games? No, of course not. But we don't get to pick and choose what does and doesn't happen. The bad sorts of the hobby still reflect on the hobby and it's one of the reasons why video games still struggle to be taken seriously as an artform. [quote] Social media is a collection of resources, covering everything from Twitter to you tube. It is not completely dominated by the aforementioned nonsense, and that percentage (Regardless of whether it falls between 70-90% or not) is unlikely to go ignored by the professional teams running social media for the companies in question.[/quote] Games are absolutely influenced by social media. It's why the consoles let people share stuff to social media with a few quick presses of a button. It's why games are using Twitch drops. It's why companies use Twitter to advertise directly to people with buzzwords and hastags. Individual team members of a development studio have social media accounts and use it to interact with and inform people. Some, sure, do ignore them but when a video game developer deletes their Twitter account because of harassment from angry gamers or when a developer gets fired because gamers brought attention to some awful comments that didn't represent the company in a positive light it means that on some level the developer and studios are listening. [quote]Outside of freakishly [i]uncommon occurrences,[/i] likened to the Battlefront 2 disaster, I don't think the musings of individuals have had any major effects on gaming. Rather, the direction of western society as a whole has likely been a far larger influence on the direction that companies have chosen to take with their games. If a handful of whining idiots had such a significant effect on the direction of the games that they seem to hate, or anything at all really, modern pseudo-activists would have turned the country on its ass by now.[/quote] Yeah, gamers have never had an effect on games or the industry. [quote]1. I don't see how gender is relevant to the discussion at hand. If you want to get into the topic of trend differences in gender, that's a whole 'nother situation altogether, and I doubt it will benefit either side of this argument to be perfectly honest. Beyond that, I need to point out the disconnect in logic that follows here.[/quote] Because males are still very much the target demographic for a lot of games and they are a majority of the ones buying them regularly. It is also often males that are starting the conversations with which this whole stupid discussion is about. [quote]Does this number - the 1 million~ people that purchased far-cry 5 on console - take into account the portion of people buying online?[/quote] Yes. [quote]Does it account for bootleg?[/quote] No, that's not a sale. [quote]Does it account for the sale of used games?[/quote] No, because those don't go to the developer so it doesn't factor into how much a game sells. It's why there's such a push for digital sales. [quote]Or the people playing games at a friend's?[/quote] Not unless they also go on to purchase the game new. [quote]Or the people who haven't even played the game, but feel the need to comment on it?[/quote] Units sold, not units observed. [quote]Far Cry is a single title, made by a single company, falling under a few select genres. In what sense does this speak for the social status of gamers as a whole?[/quote] It doesn't, I used Far Cry 5 as an example. Despite the fact that there are 150 million gamers in one country [i]alone[/i], a good portion of sales numbers comes from people that have some kind of social media presence. Social media is basically the internet water cooler. [quote]Who's to say that the majority of gamers that play far-cry have commented on the game via social media?[/quote] If someone posts a comment on the Far Cry 5 Youtube channel, that's a gamer that has commented on the game via social media. The people that comment on live streams are commenting via social media. Assuming you mean negatively commenting you and I both know that data isn't being tracked. Does every single gamer use social media? No, obviously, but social media has influenced games and the marketing of games. Even if they made an informed decision by watching whatever streamer or content creator they like that's still using social media. [quote]Even then, how can we assume that [b]the majority, or a massive portion[/b] of those people have jumped on to anti-SJW bandwagon?[/quote] If all you want is the [i]majority[/i] then congrats. You're right. It isn't the [i]majority[/i] of gamers as a whole making anti-SJW comments. It never was and it never will be, but the fact that there are [i]more of them[/i] bringing it up and getting upset that the boys club that is gaming is even more blatantly not just a boys club is still a talking point. If online discourse about games amounted to people watching a trailer and then not ever talking about it ever then sure. Yes, you can have discourse on games without people talking about how woke or how lefty a game is and in most cases that's how it goes. [quote]Even then how can you insinuate whether their views are truly offensive or not?[/quote] Because I have eyes and can read. [quote]Is it just a serious chain of assumption based on your [i]personal perception[/i] of social media and how the masses have reacted? Or have you done the research necessary, [i]the type of research that companies like EA and Bethesda are doing on a massive scale across multiple platforms mind you,[/i] to insinuate a solid series of statistics, and extrapolate from there?[/quote] Actually I work for Bethesda. [quote] when have the idiotic musings of the anti-SJW crowd ever had a significant effect on games? When has it affected marketing? Was there backlash to that? If there was backlash, why didn't it have an equal effect? Where are the [b]facts?[/b][/quote] I mean, they contributed to BioWare Montreal no longer being a thing. Or so they like to claim. [quote]Is there any evidence to imply that this vocal minority has somehow... Stopped diversity from becoming more mainstream in gaming? It doesn't seem that way.[/quote] No, but diversity still isn't mainstream in gaming. The people complaining that their precious video games are being ruined by swijuice a vocal set of people not wanting to share their blocks in the sandbox. [quote]To further complicate the topic though, what exactly defines an 'Anti-SJW' or an 'SJW' anyways? To me, if feels like they're both arbitrary buzzwords to refer to some nebulous concept of how a person thinks[/quote] Congratulations, you cracked the code. [quote]But, as a bottom line, I do agree that anyone going around and complaining about Ellie being a lesbian, [i]which was established in a very fucking GOOD DLC TO THE LAST OF US 1,[/i] or diversity in any game, are complaining about shit that isn't even remotely important, and often make themselves look like idiots. I just prefer to ignore them, rather than complain about them, because I think they're relatively harmless and I'll still get to kill dudes as Ellie when the game comes out, regardless of their whining. [/quote] My dude the only reason we even went on for this long despite us both agreeing on this point right here is because I was making a comment as to [i]why[/i] something like Ellie kissing a girl comes off as 'shocking' and 'bold' when it is neither of those things.