[quote=@Fabricant451] Heck yes time for my favorite thing: pointlessly discussing opinions. [/quote] Yes indeed. [quote=@Fabricant451]This is where I'm gonna jump in to defend Rey since a common misconception about her from episode 7 is that she is a Mary Sue (she isn't) and that her character was established in similar way to Luke from A New Hope. As in: visually. It is contrasted super hard from our introduction to Kylo (who is subverted later due to the introduction to good effect), and to Poe who we are just flatout told is 'the best pilot' Rey's introduction is completely through visual storytelling. She's introduced scavenging through an old Imperial walker, she's shown to be incredibly independent, her makeshift home is basically dug out of wreckage and her putting on of the helmet is about as much of an expression of dream and desire as Luke looking out at the twin suns. This pivots to her meeting BB-8 where her initial reluctance is won over though she's still not exactly interested in it up until the whole exchange at the bazaar. [/quote] I think it's a common misconception among fans of the new trilogy that she has the same kind of development as Luke in terms of evolving from virtually nothing into a force competent power. There is a difference between 'incredibly independent' and incredibly skilled on a relatively out of the way world who is not underskilled in anything. I see no real challenges for her. I see little weakness. I see little to grow from, and as a result, I simply don't see the growth. I see the same person in the next movie as I saw in the first movie. Luke was heavily flawed, heavily unskilled save for a couple things (and certainly nowhere near as adept with the Force as she proves to be off the bat). He was rather relatable off the bat for his many flaws, each of which he overcame. I saw little of that in Rey. And that is where I feel she falls flat. [quote=@Fabricant451]Rey's development is incomplete but she's in a different place at the end of both movies then she was at the start, which is pretty much the basis of any character in film or story telling. By the end of TFA she's willing to embrace what everyone has called her destiny even though all she wants is to cling to the desperate hope that her parents didn't just leave her to fend for herself. She starts the movie as fiercely independent, then finds the father figure she's always desired, and has to watch as that's taken away from her. Her story parallels that of Luke and it's very deliberate. By the end of ANH, Luke basically single handedly destroys the Death Star; by the end of TFA, Rey's biggest accomplishment is beating a very injured and overly emotional Kylo Ren [i]who isn't even trying to defeat her anyway[/i]. [/quote] A different set of surroundings and saying 'wellp, I have a point now' to your already developed abilities after seeing each test easily surpassed is another matter entirely. As far as beating Kylo Ren, consider that Rey isn't even remotely trained in lightsaber combat, while Ren was given considerable training in that as well as general force abilities. He was underpresented and she was overpresented. [quote=@Fabricant451]Her arcs thus far are about dealing with loss and disappointment yet still having the hope to push on. She lost her parents, her father figure, a man she idolized from legendary stories turned out to be a massive disappointment, and the guy she thought she could save when others failed him turned out to be the biggest disappointment of them all. Unlike Kylo, her disappointment doesn't send her spiraling down a dark path but instead she intends to use it to grow and improve upon it. There's a reason Yoda blatantly spells out the message of failure in TLJ. [/quote] And yet I see her ultimately change little over the course. The presentation is simply boring to me. We'll probably need to agree to disagree. [quote=@Fabricant451]Nothing Rey has done in the movies have been overpowered. She knows how to fly because Unkar lets her take ships to atmo sometimes, she knows how to fix the Falcon because she was there when the modification was installed and Han wasn't. She's shown to be a capable fighter on Jakku and her entire life to that point is one that suggests learning self defense is vital. At most the case is against her use of the Force with no training, but that's how the Force is and it wasn't like she was doing death defying feats. She'd heard the tales of the Jedi, she got a basic overview from Maz Kanata, and she put it into action by bluffing Kylo and tricking a guard. Force sensitives do weird stuff practically unconsciously. [/quote] - Great fighter including with a lightsaber just by picking it up. Self defense against brigands is another matter from beating the living shit out of basically whatever comes at her in a straight fight. - Capable force user with a trick of pulling the lightsaber at a time in the movies when Luke, son of a being that was apparently spawned by pure force, was having tons of trouble doing the same. - Han has many more years around the Falcon then she's had in her life. I'm skeptical that she'd be fully adept at the things he is. - No, that is not 'how the force is', because the only place where that kind of logic could be sustained is in the Phantom Menace where a 9 year old that was apparently made of pure Force (total bullshit plot there, but bear with me) was able to pull droids from his ass and blow up starships single handedly. Luke was fully developed as a human being and given some training in the force by Kenobi at least. And then said 9 year old pretty much fell right into line with the masters by not following the same scale in the second movie onwards as far as power. Someone untrained and unpracticed in the force I believe to be well established as someone who simply can't use it effectively unless given proper training. She had the full grip before training even began, and when it did, she basically had it all on the spot. She's either Palpatine's granddaughter (or some equivalent, but if it's the former, I'll somewhat understand and possibly even like the development if done right) or her balancing is skewed. [quote=@Fabricant451]Good thing that's not what Rey's deal is. [/quote] We'll have to agree to disagree. [quote=@Fabricant451]Ren is hardly inept, just emotionally immature, and it's hard to say that the First Order is idiotic considering they're basically winning the conflict and literally made their stamp on the galaxy by taking out the center of the new government. Snoke's wisdom starts and stops with him having knowledge of the Force and basic manipulation tactics. The First Order is made up of people who retreated after the end of the last war, they're Imperial loyalists and those birthed into it, fanatics in other terms. The main problem with them is that their goals are ill defined, but that's because the First Order and the Resistance are just tools to further the development of the main characters. [/quote] I've seen nothing to indicate Ren has a remotely strategic or even cunning mind, and plenty to see as far as his failures. As an antagonist, I'm pretty unconcerned of the idea of the guy chasing me. Even more so of the fleet that saw itself heavily damaged by dropped bombs in circumstances that could have been rather easily avoided by proper troop deployments. The leader in that scene (whatever his name is, escapes me) I remember best for having a face, voice and presentation (the dialogue... god) better suited to a comedy version of nazi germany than a leader part of the remnants of a fairly professional empire that had many able commanders (surely, not all of them were killed on the second death star >.>). Snoke is a macguffin of power (or if I'm being critical, a wannabe Palpatine, which I don't go into because I acknowledge that a subplot could be that everyone is simply weaker because the truly skilled forces for light and dark are badly depleted), so not much can really be said to where anything about him begins and ends despite his very stupid death. [quote=@Fabricant451]It's the Resistance, the Rebel Alliance stopped being a thing when they won the war. The Resistance scrounged together an offensive that destroyed a system-killing weapon and then took out a dreadnought (albeit in an engagement with too high a cost) all while being understaffed and underfunded. There's no real government anymore and the Resistance never had the official backing of the Republic anyway. They aren't doing so badly for a bunch of people with dwindling numbers. [/quote] Their individual decisions badly annoy me. [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLqLQvTbo-Y]I'll let this guy do the point by point,[/url] though he goes a bit deeper than I do in various bits, and I'm not in agreement with every point. I expect better from the next generation of the same entity with similar leadership, including Leia. [quote=@Fabricant451]I disagree entirely. The fact that the guy who staunchly refused to fight his father and the evil raisin man would then go on to do the most Jedi thing in the history of Jedi is a fitting coda to his character. [/quote] More to him than that, but I doubt going on about it would get anywhere. [quote=@Fabricant451]Star Wars has never had dumbass stuff in it. Not like the central conceit of a magical entity that is 'blue is good, red is bad' is dumb or anything! [/quote] You'd think those elements would be reduced, not expanded.