[quote]Again you said 'no self respecting feminist'[/quote]
	Did I? I don't recall using any language indicative of such, and that's certainly not a direct quote. Where did I say or imply that?

[quote]And what the hell does any of that have to do with feminism? [/quote]
	Nothing at all. Therein lies my point, that being that labeling Kill Bill as a 'feminist' movie is inane. If the central themes are so comprehensive and overwhelming, how could one associate this movie with feminist ideals based on one hyperbole of independence?

[quote]Which shows you don't understand the meaning of ad hominem[/quote]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/TydKWFU.gif[/img]
[sub]Haha, whatever you say, chief.[/sub]

[quote]No, its origins are in philosophy from Classical Liberal thinkers like Jeremy Bentham the term feminism was coined by Charles Fourier in 1837. The significant feminist movements came after the ideology. 

I don't know what you mean by 'political body' there is no American Feminist Political Party so you comparing them to the Democratic party is just bizarre. If you're saying that feminism as a movement that has an effect and is affected by politics then, you are pointing out what can be applied to most 'movements'.
[/quote]
	I actually didn't know that, apologies.

	Feminism most certainly had a political body in the first wave movements, and it can be argued that some groups still act to push for political changes today. Core political feminist themes - those that can be taken seriously anyways, and those which I'm referring to - specifically deal with raising women to be on equal lawful standing with men. There's nothing bizarre about taking two groups who's members demonstrate the exact same trends and argue that there need to be [b]changes in government policy,[/b] whether it's aiding women, men, homosexuals, or whatever.

[quote]you are pointing out what can be applied to most 'movements'.[/quote]
	Y..Yes. I am. Any movement or group(body) that has a political goal, is a political movement. 

	There's a lot of confusion that most face when attributing the feminist 'genre' to media, I think. If you consider the vast and nebulous array of feminist ideology, whether political or not, nearly anything featuring female leads can be considered 'feminist'. But then, wouldn't the definition lose purpose? That's exactly why I think it's inane to label movies like Kill Bill as feminist, when the core themes are so far south of feminism that it's laughable. It would be similar to coining Django unchained as a movie about 'slavery'. Django is absolutely riddled with themes about slavery but as you've mentioned, it isn't the main focus of the movie. But it's still very pertinent. Slavery motivates the character. Does feminism motivate Kill Bill's protagonist? I'd argue no, but if you can expand on:
[quote] I want to hear your reasoning behind this as I'm genuinely curious. Why are they feminist themes? What exactly makes them feminist themes to you? Why do you correlate these themes with feminism, instead of confidence, independence, or love, for example?[/quote]
	I'd be [b]glad[/b] to hear your perspective. I'm still a little confused on what exactly you believe, or what you're arguing, when you're conceding to points like this:
[quote]...does suffragette have feminist themes? Yes probably...[/quote]
	By your own words, you would define it as a feminist film, right? That's essentially the argument you're making for Kill Bill, isn't it? Or am I misunderstanding you? Or could it be that you're picking and choosing the feminist themes that match your own understanding of of the topic? :gray

	You could argue that I'm doing the same thing, but I prefer to narrow the scope of what I'm referring to, as not to avoid making a flimsy argument based on conjecture. This is why I chose to use the political definitions of feminist goals/ideology. It's the only [i]somewhat[/i] objective metric that I can refer to, as there are clear goals and philosophies to draw from. If I had to phrase it as an argument: [i]feminist philosophy in regards to politics is more trustworthy than feminist ideology based on a nebulous conglomerate established over the course of 100 years.[/i] Though I would like to point out once again, that I am not rightly educated on feminist politics. I merely believe that differentiating between politics and the ideology behind those politics is important, and a good way to eliminate a lot of subjective integers.

	The most I'd concede to is that some of Kill Bill's themes can be correlated with vague feminist ideologies. But I still believe that an argument should be made to defend this, in this case. You cannot simply state that the themes are 'feminist' based on an interpretation of a school of thought that is as conflicted and unclear as the feminist ideology, without also defending your interpretation. I'm mostly challenging the idea that 'kill bill is a feminist movie' because I still think that's an absurd notion. Are you arguing that the main character is a feminist? Or holds feminist ideals? Or that the subtext of the movie promotes feminist ideals? How so? Why? Is that more important than the other themes presented in the movie? Does that correlate with the tone? Does the narrative present it as such? [b]How?[/b]

[quote] you are personally shocked that anyone would even make the arguments that I'm making.[/quote]
	I wouldn't say shocked, but I do think a lot of your arguments are based on your perspective and opinions alone. While there's nothing inherently wrong with that, it inherently weakens a position, and will ultimately corrode an argument with bias. It's also a habit that promotes the stagnation of ideas.

[quote]Your constant dismissing my opinions as inane[/quote]
	[hider=I'm sorry I've wanted to use this for a while][img]https://i.imgur.com/M5o4ccy.jpg[/img][/hider]
	Opinions are like rocks. Everybody can have one, but they're totally worthless until you turn them into a house or a well, unless you want to [i]bludgeon people to death with them[/i]. I confront them because I'm curious to see your reaction. Will you build a house? Or just start throwing them at me?

[quote]Ive seen you debate with others and it's rarely in this tone, so I can only conclude that this is because feminism is an important issue to you.[/quote]

	Is it? I'm fairly certain that I'm always very tactless when arguing. I think it encourages effort!
[hr]
[@Fabricant451] 
	I certainly wouldn't consider Tarantino to be a producer of feminist film. Though maybe I'm confusing how people are using the terminology. I can agree that his films are certainly in line with feminist thinking, even from a political standpoint, but only in regards to equality. The issue I see is that these so-called feminist themes are not given any measure of focus. They're an afterthought and play second fiddle to the core themes of his movies.

	It's like I'd mentioned. If we're associating ideals that have become [i]common sense[/i] in the past two decades with every film that treats women like people, the label loses significance, and becomes completely inane. I believe that in order to label any media as 'feminist', it should actively play upon feminist themes as the focal point of its story. But at that point I guess it really is-
[quote]like fighting over calling it a shovel or a spade.[/quote]
-which I think is an important distinction to make! Otherwise, we're just being reductive, and there's nothing to be gained from that.