[quote]Do you know what the [b]Bechdel test[/b] is? Are you familiar with this way of grading if a movie meets even the most basic levels of feminism?[/quote]

	Oh I actually do know this one! I think it's a completely reductive, and shortsighted method. As far as film analysis goes, it's an absolute joke and is not to be taken seriously.

[quote]it's only nebulous to you because you are unfamiliar with it[/quote]

	It is [i]nebulous[/i] because of nonsense like the [i]Bechdel test[/i] being taken seriously. Though I'm not sure if you implied it to be anything more that a cute litmus test, to be honest. If so, [i]holy shit.[/i] I am familiar with [i]basic feminist philosophy[/i], but I am not familiar with the bias of feminist film theory, or any other 'complex' philosophies therein. The reason feminism is nebulous is not because I'm not familiar with it. It is nebulous because of how subjective it is as a social science, and how unfocused it [i]seems[/i] in recent years. This is why it requires clarification and directness, otherwise it fails to leave an impact in conversation as anything more than a faulty line of thinking. I'm a firm believer that social science is a [i]terribly subjective[/i] school of thought in general. Ideas are not affirmed by their own existence after all. They are affirmed through reasoning and experience, hence why argument is such a useful tool in both strengthening, and [i]taking apart[/i] schools of thought that are grounded in [i]seemingly complex hypotheses[/i].

	Declaring my point of view as [i]wrong[/i] or [i]misguided[/i] while citing [i]feminist theory[/i] as your source is poor argumentation. I've already conceded that by your criteria, Kill Bill would in fact be a feminist film. I have now clarified, however, that I believe this criteria to be inadequate. "Feminism says otherwise" or "You don't understand feminism well enough" are not counterpoints. They are... Well, I think I've clarified that already.

	Let's not even involve the fact that your knowledge and understanding of feminism is further hampered by your capacity for thought. I'm not implying that you are unintelligent, or incapable, but as with every other person on the planet, you are inclined to error and I cannot for a second give you the benefit of the doubt when you claim to have an understanding of feminist philosophy, regardless of your education. A man can read fifty books on argumentation, and still get outwitted by an unschooled hobo. Our education does not define our ability to think and understand, it's quite the opposite, really. Our ability to think and understand defines how well we will take to education. This is why I laugh at people when they bring up their [i]social science[/i] degrees as a validation of their thoughts.

[quote]No this isn't 'stricter' criteria[/quote]

	Yes, it... [i]Is?[/i] Disagree with the thought process behind it if you please, but it is in fact [i]stricter criteria.[/i]

[quote]Again you are conflating a [i]film being feminist[/i] in terms of representation of it's characters and a character within the film  [i]being a feminist[/i] by your LGBT analogy.[/quote]

	No I'm... Not? I can see how somebody would make this mistake, but you'd have to be taking my analogy [i]very literally.[/i] The point I'm trying to make is that simplifying a particular set of themes with a label that doesn't have any [i]substance[/i] is inane. There's no productive dialogue to be had as a result, rendering the subject moot with its redundancy, simplicity, or irrelevance.

[quote]There is [s]some[/s] [b]quite a lot of[/b] subjectivity in feminism and it [b]is very[/b] divisive [b]in general,[/b] as with [b]all ideologies[/b]. [/quote]

	I just edited the quote with my beliefs, which I think are [i]wholly accurate,[/i] mind you.

[quote]But the basic ideas of the ideology are very straightforward and can be applied to Kill Bill.[/quote]

	I do still disagree that the film should be labeled as 'feminist', but I will concede that the film correlates with the general idea of women being treated no differently than men. But I don't think that there's any emphasis on this. Maybe the emphasis comes from the fact that it was released in the early 2000's? Maybe the fact that the lead is female had a great deal of significance back then? I'm not sure if that's a stable argument as I'm not exactly a film buff, but it's possible. But if we hold it to today's standards, there is absolutely no way in hell it meets my expectation of a feminist text.

[quote]Now to be clear, you have humbly admitted you know little about feminism and holding to the fact you don't Kill Bill is feminist. But me, [@Fabricant451] and the very smug [@Inkarnate] do know more about feminism than you. 

So with all do respect 1 person's opinion on a film in regards to an ideology that they don't fully understand, isn't going to hold much weight in a debate against those who do understand it.
[/quote]

	I'm afraid this is where I draw the line. This is, and I mean no ill intent with this phrase, [i]is the most ignorant thing[/i] you've said thus far. Not because it's untrue, but because of the nature of such an assertion. An appeal to people, as well as an appeal to authority, are both outrageous fallacies. Especially considering the subjective nature - the [i]very subjective[/i] nature of social science as a whole - which plagues the body of knowledge you're referencing. If you simply have no interest in carrying the conversation any further (I certainly don't at this point) then it's adequate to simply say so, or stop responding.

	My argument as it is now (after learning that my memory of Kill Bill is in fact completely inaccurate, and that our arguments have not been entirely congruent) is more in line with how slapping the feminist Label on films with such general criteria is shallow and pointless. Despite this, I have [i]not[/i] changed my own criteria on what a feminist movie should entail, and I would still cite several of the points I've already made to support this idea as it is. 

	Simply put, I have already conceded that by your definition, Kill Bill is a feminist film, but I do not agree with your criteria, as by that notion, a great deal of films could be considered 'feminist', something I also disagree with. In the same fashion, and [i]allow me to reword this,[/i] I would not label movies that display homosexual individuals as no different than others as [i]'LGBT'[/i], despite the fact that this falls in line with the idea that sexuality is not to be stigmatized. Instead, in both cases, I would apply the label of 'feminist' or 'LGBT' to movies that offer an intelligent dialogue about the trends they are discussing, while referencing the aforementioned as 'movies that fall in line with X's ideals'.

	I suppose to reword it, so it makes more sense:

	-Movies like Kill Bill fall in line with feminist ideals, but offer no significant dialogue on feminist themes, therefore they are not Feminist texts.
	-Movies like Ex Machina discuss feminist themes in depth [sub](I'll just assume this to be the case)[/sub] despite [i]not[/i] lining up with feminist ideals (I'll assume this is also the case, even if it isn't). Therefore, it is a feminist text.

	I see where you're coming from, I really do. And to an extent, I agree. But I also think that this flagrant simplification of genre, which is how I've been viewing this from the start, is harmful and wholly reductive.

	I think I'm going to eject myself from this conversation at this point. You're spouting fallacies (although I'm sure you don't intend to) and constantly evading my inquiries. I lack sufficient knowledge to further extrapolate and [i]kind of don't want to, considering.[/i] Worst of all, the topic has drifted too far from movies to warrant a discussion further in this thread.

	It's been interesting. I do apologize for my tone early on. I have a bad habit of picking on people, lol.