Hidden 5 yrs ago 5 yrs ago Post by Tim
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Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Ezekiel
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Just a few notes.

It's quite interesting to see someone create a character connected to the Followers of Palawa during a time period they're not really touched upon, a fun idea to explore. That said, I have a few main pieces of feedback for the sheet;

1. It seems really unlikely that the Followers wouldn't have been aware of his force potential and trained him in such, they are, after all, an order dedicated to the study of the Force, simply in a different way to the Jedi. While in the Prequel Era and beyond they seem more anti-force, this is years before then, so I don't believe they would have transitioned to that yet.

2. He seems, really powerful. To, by 18, be a five times world champion on a planet dedicated to martial arts seems something of an impossible feat. Combined with his extensive, if untrained, force powers. I'd probably tone down his level of success somewhat.

3. The way in which he joins the Sith seems super convenient and 'by chance' and makes it seem cheap. I think it's worth pointing out that the Sith Empire actively pursues/captures force users to take them back to Korriban to join the academy. It seems far more likely he'd be picked up by Sith in that manner, while he was on Tatooine, rather than singled out by chance on the planet itself.

Anyway, just my thoughts, if those can be addressed I'd be more than happy to accept it.
Hidden 5 yrs ago 5 yrs ago Post by Tim
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@Ezekiel

Okay, thanks for the response. I'll change the status to WIP and give you a teg when I'm done, but I'm gonna address these real quick before changing the sheet:

1. That is a very good point. I didn't really think of themlike that. Sorta had the mindset of "they know how the force works, so they know the best why to fight Jedi" and not just "they know how the force works". Just sorta figured it was a young Anakin deal where he never actively used the force, so they didn't notice, focusing on the martial art.

2. If that seems too powerful, then you're probably right. Just really wanted to emphasize that he's probably up there with the strongest Teräs Käsi fighters. Like at least top 10. So I can change it to maybe the last 2-3 years he was the champion, but I just sorta show how he was always getting stronger, and when he hit the plateau for strength, he wanted to leave.

3. Okay two things about this one:

a. I didn't really know enough about the Sith Academy, so I didn't really wanna touch it.

b. I also really didn't want him to be, like... Taken against his will? I mean, he already sees the Jedi as evil, and I figured that if the Sith sort of trick him into thinking The Empire are the good guys, it would be more beneficial. I mean, he probably no doubt spent some time at the academy (for basic force understanding, then continued under his master), but I just don't believe that any Sith that witnesses his fighting potential and can sense his hatred for the Jedi, like, WOULDN'T try to trick him into coming of his own volition. Plus, I don't think there's anything wrong with a Sith Lord just picking up an apprentice. Unless I'm wrong and that's not a thing.

Also, I wasn't really sure how The Empire tracks force users, so I didn't really wanna touch that either. I mean, Tatooine isn't really a Sith world, so they'd have to be sending people out. And I mean, of course there's been Sith ON Tatooine, probably to meet with smugglers and bounty hunters or something, but this is probably just the first time one has seen Garen in a fight. I dunno. I could just be making excuses. Sorry.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback! I'll change my sheet when I can.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Ruby
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@Ezekiel

Okay, thanks for the response. I'll change the status to WIP and give you a teg when I'm done, but I'm gonna address these real quick before changing the sheet:

1. That is a very good point. I didn't really think of themlike that. Sorta had the mindset of "they know how the force works, so they know the best why to fight Jedi" and not just "they know how the force works". Just sorta figured it was a young Anakin deal where he never actively used the force, so they didn't notice, focusing on the martial art.

2. If that seems too powerful, then you're probably right. Just really wanted to emphasize that he's probably up there with the strongest Teräs Käsi fighters. Like at least top 10. So I can change it to maybe the last 2-3 years he was the champion, but I just sorta show how he was always getting stronger, and when he hit the plateau for strength, he wanted to leave.

3. Okay two things about this one:

a. I didn't really know enough about the Sith Academy, so I didn't really wanna touch it.

b. I also really didn't want him to be, like... Taken against his will? I mean, he already sees the Jedi as evil, and I figured that if the Sith sort of trick him into thinking The Empire are the good guys, it would be more beneficial. I mean, he probably no doubt spent some time at the academy (for basic force understanding, then continued under his master), but I just don't believe that any Sith that witnesses his fighting potential and can sense his hatred for the Jedi, like, WOULDN'T try to trick him into coming of his own volition. Plus, I don't think there's anything wrong with a Sith Lord just picking up an apprentice. Unless I'm wrong and that's not a thing.

Also, I wasn't really sure how The Empire tracks force users, so I didn't really wanna touch that either. I mean, Tatooine isn't really a Sith world, so they'd have to be sending people out. And I mean, of course there's been Sith ON Tatooine, probably to meet with smugglers and bounty hunters or something, but this is probably just the first time one has seen Garen in a fight. I dunno. I could just be making excuses. Sorry.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback! I'll change my sheet when I can.


Check out my Selene WIP CS.

Dark sider not officially with the Sith, but I have to plant seeds in the CS that the Sith will get their damn hands on her, because...it's the Sith Empire.

Taken against will can turn into really really fun games, and make Sith who aren't always so happy about the Empire's status quo.

Just a similar situation you might wanna check out.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Tim
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<Snipped quote by Tim>

Check out my Selene WIP CS.

Dark sider not officially with the Sith, but I have to plant seeds in the CS that the Sith will get their damn hands on her, because...it's the Sith Empire.

Taken against will can turn into really really fun games, and make Sith who aren't always so happy about the Empire's status quo.

Just a similar situation you might wanna check out.


Yeah, I read over it a while ago (just did a quick re-read to be sure) and I definitely would not want to be her when the Sith come for her.

I myself was kinda implying that, even though his naïvaté has literally almost been the death of him, Garen is still naïve enough to believe that the Sith are the good guys, and really the tipping point for him is if he can learn to shake this before the Sith can manipulate him past the point of no return or not. Kinda shows the more subtle villiany of the Sith. Or something like that, I dunno.

But I realize that not everything on the sheet is up to par and that I haven't really been thinking enough with my big ol' brain. I definitely have to consider my next moves...
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Ruby
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<Snipped quote by Ruby>

Yeah, I read over it a while ago (just did a quick re-read to be sure) and I definitely would not want to be her when the Sith come for her.

I myself was kinda implying that, even though his naïvaté has literally almost been the death of him, Garen is still naïve enough to believe that the Sith are the good guys, and really the tipping point for him is if he can learn to shake this before the Sith can manipulate him past the point of no return or not. Kinda shows the more subtle villiany of the Sith. Or something like that, I dunno.

But I realize that not everything on the sheet is up to par and that I haven't really been thinking enough with my big ol' brain. I definitely have to consider my next moves...


I think it shows his youth that he's see it in blanket terms of good and evil which is cool.

So you then propose your approach to how the Sith bring him in.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Tim
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<Snipped quote by Tim>

I think it shows his youth that he's see it in blanket terms of good and evil which is cool.

So you then propose your approach to how the Sith bring him in.


I thought I did that. Sith is there on business, Sith witness potential and senses hatred of Jedi when the sabers start glowin' , Sith uses hatred and naïvaté to convince him to join voluntarily, knowing that even if he refuses, the Sith Kidnapping Squad can come pick him up. I don't think it was all that coincidental, because y'know it was only a matter of time before someone with Sith relations noticed his subtle force powers, and Anchorhead is pretty much the place to be to hire some Scum and Villiany for dastardly deeds.

But, I mean, if that's too much of a stretch, I can think of something else. Just gonna take a bit for the cogs to turn.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Ruby
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I'm fine with it though the other points of Zeke's remain.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Tim
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@Ezekiel

Okie doke, changed the first few paragraphs of the bio slightly to accomodate the first two points. The second point was easy enough, just changed it from 5 years to 3 years.

The first point actually made me think, though, because it was really good one. Sorta pushed me to make a deeper backstory and a plot reason for him to go back to Bunduki. So, y'know, I'd actually like to thank you for pointing that out.

Get to it when you can. No rush.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Ellri
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Review of Garen Zi:
1. Grammar and Formatting.
Imperial Personnel Files section: get the section contents out of the headers, remove excess line breaks.
Appearance: "His hands are that of a laborer's", → His hands are like those of a laborer
‘Calloused on the knuckles’ → callused knuckles
Achievements section: using The Force → using the Force
Interview: smaller numbers are typically spelled out. Only when you go above 101 or so do you start using numerals.
The Recording passages would probably look better as quotes than as hiders.

2. Immersion violations.
Tribal tattoo, is that not Earthly in origin? How does this tie into the Followers of Palawa?

3. The Force.
We’re largely avoiding the topic of Midi-chlorians in the PG, due to the fact that some people hate the idea of them. Additionally, they’re not really known to the Jedi Order yet, with them using other means for identifying Force-sensitives. We suggest simply saying his strength in the force is above average.

His innate talent can be for Breath Control, not hibernation trance, as the latter is a highly advanced form of the former.
Nice to see a sheet that hasn’t gone over-the-top on training level… however, he does seem to have a lot of innate talents. Might be wise to change a few of those to just training. Currently two-thirds of his techniques are talents.

Certain things like precognition fall in under basic training for all trained force-sensitives, even if it is just to improve reflexes. Considering his near-mastery of a form of martial arts, he would almost certainly have trained this. Anything related to acrobatics/athletics are techniques likely to fall in under his Teräs Käsi training. To maintain the balance of skills, we suggest reducing Force Throw to a more basic level.

4. Other skills.
Can he fly ships? Pilot any vehicles? Is he a good shot? Can he slice computer systems? Cook nerf steaks? Sew? etc.

5. Combat experience and training.
Since the Followers of Palawa train especially to counter Jedi, we would imagine that he has at least a basic understanding of most forms, albeit most likely focused towards countering them, rather than using them himself.

As mentioned by another GM, we’d also recommend that you reduce his level of success somewhat, spice it up with a bit of failure and some stand-offs where neither side succeeded. Give him some events he had to learn from to become better. Perhaps the sources for some of his scars.

Additionally, his history of being three-times world-champion by the age of eighteen is a bit implausible… But rather than cut it down further in duration, we have an alternate suggestion: Bring in age brackets. Make him the best in his age group and perhaps have him have proved himself better than people in the bracket above too. It is not all that likely for someone of the age he was to have beaten everyone of all ages three years in a row at a martial arts. Raw talent can only compensate for so much real experience. He’ll still be pretty badass, and he’ll have more room to grow.

Why did he only reluctantly study form III?

6. Politics & Associates.
What sort of person is his master in the Empire? Is it one that avoid politics too, or is it one that takes care of that stuff for his/her apprentices?

Has he met any of the other Sith? Any of the non-Sith?

7. Ownerships.
Those gauntlets? Overpowered. Ridiculously so.
You can have gauntlets covered in cortosis weave, but you need express permission from GMs for pure cortosis, as that is extremely rare to see. It is not something that would be given to a mere apprentice for a minor achievement like lightsaber training. The gauntlets you described would be worth a fortune.

Replace them with just plain old cortosis weave, and it’ll be fine with the reasoning provided.

8. Personality.
Mercy isn’t unheard of in the Empire. Some Sith favor it less than others, but the empire as a whole is relatively fair. Harsh at times, but still fair. Once someone has served the punishment for his or her crime, it is all water under the bridge.

He is slow to anger. Does he stay angry long? Does he forgive people easily?

9. Flaws.
Any major skill ranges he’s severely lacking in training in?
If under a politically skilled master, an apprentice can actually rise fairly high without delving into it him/herself, but will always be at risk of someone outmaneuvering him/her later, or losing opportunities anyone seeking to rise above apprentice must have political influence, though. Good flaw, though.

How does he feel about imperial law and justice? Does he work with it? Around it? Does he break it? Has his behavior here reflected poorly on his master?

10. Interview.
As mentioned earlier, midi-chlorian-testing isn’t common. Only the Empire runs with mandatory testing of force-sensitivity for everyone, but even they use alternate (but unspecified) means.
Also as mentioned by other GM(s), he would almost certainly have been known as a Force-sensitive, but with Bunduki being far outside both imperial and republic space, would naturally not have been picked up by either order as a child.

They (presumably) have some sort of tradition for training their Force-sensitives, but it is probably more limited than that practiced by the Jedi or the Sith. We imagine that it would tie heavily into how to counter Jedi.

Indoctrination of Jedi hate would most likely start even earlier. Sure, young children don’t fully understand the hows and whys, but they are far more susceptible because of this. Especially considering the nature of the offense. It is not altogether unlike how young Sith are taught about the Sith Genocide.

Why did he express interest in leaving Bunduki? Was it encouraged? Discouraged?

Are the reasons behind the abandonment something you intend explore IC?

Nice to see an example of someone successfully fighting an asymmetrical battle against lightsaber while keeping it mostly balanced.

Suggestion: rather than simply have the Sith approaching at random… How about Garen verbally mistaking his opponent for a Jedi, then have the Sith offer to teach him even more about fighting Jedi? Perhaps also have some limited use of the Force pop up to really make the Sith interested?
How is his mental fortitude (resisting telepathic influence)? Would a Sith’s subtle use of such be likely to be effective?

Would he have noticed the Sith Lord?

Also, while tatooine is not near the front lines of the war (its pretty far from them) pretty much the whole known galaxy knows of the war. What are his views on it? How does he feel about the Sith as a group?

11. Other.
Your failures mention a political mission to Kamino. What sort of mission would that have been? They’re even now rather isolationist and outside both imperial and republic territories.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Tim
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Ah. You make a lot of sense. I have made a large amount of errors by both being nonsensical and vague. It's actually laughable that, before being talked down about it, I first considered making a Darth. I see now that creating a sheet for something as simple as an apprentice is both beyond my understanding and out of my reach.

When I first created this character, I had pulled all my SW knowledge from what I could remember from KOTOR and whatever I could find on the wiki about the time period. After reading over all the provided materials, I was still confused about places like "So we're acknowledging some of the prequels stuff, does that mean the Original and Prequel trilogies are fair game?" And "If Teräs Käsi was created around 30 years ago IC, how is Arden Lyn a master of it if she was around during the First Great Schism?". But I made a character anyway, fumbling in my ignorance, instead of consulting a GM because I didn't want to be a bother.

I can understand now that being vague, as to not break continuity by accident and ruin my sheet, has ironically ruined my sheet with the lack of details. And then the coincidences that happen to my character. I mean, I keep comparing him to young Anakin, but he's not really that special. Not special enough for the Force to alter his fate like it did for the characters in the movies, anyway. But I don't think I can change anything for the sake of just remaking his entire backstory and parts of his sheet, with everything hinging on certain improbable events happening. Sort of set myself up without a failsafe, there.

But, y'know, enough complaining about stuff in hindsight. I've come to the conclusion that I was waaaay over my head in this. So, unwilling to change my sheet and character further and possibly cause more errors in both logic and continuity with my itty-bitty brain, I'm declaring this Denied.

Thanks for looking over the sheet (painful as it must have been), pointing out the flaws, and offering avenues of positive change, Persistent World Mods. Hopefully, someone wanting to create a character can look over my sheet and see what not to do. Maybe even Frankenstein some of the few good aspects and create an actual Force Monk. I'm sorry to have wasted your time and effort.

But thanks for giving me a shot.

-Tim
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Nah, your sheet wasn't all that bad...There's sheets that have been far more problematic. We still feel it is one that can be fixed, @Tim.
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If you should desire to create a different character, don't hesitate to ask for help. discussing character concepts and design is something we generally enjoy.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Tim
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No, I insist, really. My brain doesn't work too good. I just can't comprehend stuff if it's not a certain way. Spent a long time looking over the problems I had in my sheet, and after moving onto some of the big stuff like his early life/training on Bunduki, I couldn't make sense of any solutions.

But I do really appreciate your help, all of you. Thanks for your feedback, and good luck with any future sheets.
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Good luck to you too. We tagged it as [Withdrawn] instead, though. More appropriate label.
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