This is ridiculous. I'm not getting back into this just need to set at least one standard before this continues.

I think if there is anything that we all have to agree on, whether we believe in God or not, it is that humans can kill each other with or without religion, they can be cruel with or without religion, they can pillage, loot, destroy, murder, rape and...destroy with or without religion. Being atheist does not immediately mean that when you murder you do so because you do not believe in God, and neither does being theist mean that when you kill it is because you believe in God. You do so because you are a messed up, rather vile human and that is what messed up rather, vile humans do.

If we are going to learn anything from this thus-far-useless-debate, let us learn that. I hope we can all come to terms with this very heavy, rather baffling concept. 

[quote=So Boerd]At any rate, certainly in the modern era, having a leader whose morality was formed by a non-Islamic religion (No aspersions on Islam, just looking at the numbers and statistics) seems to be the best way to prevent ridiculous loss of life.[/quote]

I would like to point out that 'morality formed by a non-Islamic religion' is, for the most part, no different than that formed by Islam. In fact, you will find that most interpretations of religions specifically insist on peace and tolerance and a general moral code accepted wherever you go in the world, and Islam is no different. The fact that the legacy of imperialism - mostly noted in the heavily damaging European-made borders which cut up many Muslim countries in the early 20th century - remains is no fault of the countries in question, but of those who chose to play god over people and territories with a history which the imperialists understood very little about. I would also like to point out that today we have many Islamist leaders and parties which are legitimate contenders in the democratic process, such as the AKP in Turkey and their President Abdullah Gul (as well as the notorious Prime Minister Recip Tayyip Erdogan) who not only won in fair elections but have benefited Turkey and moved it away from the ardent secularism and restrictions on freedom of religion. You also have Indonesia's ruling Democratic Party with their concept of Pancasila, which insists on the 'Oneness of God' a defining Islamic principle. There is also Malaysia, another healthy democracy with a ruling Islamist party. All these countries have leaders whose 'morality' was formed by Islam, I don't see theocracies rising there any time soon.

I think we need to differentiate between untypical occurrences like the Taliban government in Afghanistan, which was an extreme government using religion to justify its extreme position, and what one would define as a proper Islamic government, which I can assure you does not call for the conversion of all heretics and murder of all Jews and heathens and whatever else. It is a religion like all other, it has its extremists, like other religions, but in the end it is just as compatible with democracy as Christianity and Judaism and many other ancient religions from which people can draw inspiration and moderate beliefs. Thus let us not judge all leaders of a particular fath and assume that so long as leader should spring from that religion they are bound to be dictators and murderers.

That's my fifty cents, I'll go back to working and watching this foolishness develop :dreamy