Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Kratesis
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I watched my grandfather deteriorate and pass away. He was a very religious man and he never said he wanted to die but you could see it in his eyes. The degree to which he suffered and the degree to which he slowly lost all of his dignity cannot be understated. It is one thing to read about it and quite another to see it and understand it because you understand the person who is experiencing a fate that is literally worse than death.

There is a point when suffering becomes so great that a dignified parting from life is a justifiable choice. Setting aside the question of how it is to be financed, everyone has a right to control their own body; including the choice to live or die. For those whose experience of life has become one of constant suffering they should have access to a humane and peaceful way to pass from this world if that is their choice.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by POOHEAD189
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Same here. I spent 18 days in Florida sleeping on my aunt's couch back when I was in college (and missed a course) because my grandmother was dying, and I was in the room with her when she passed. It was her own choice and all my family and I could do would be to comfort her while it happened.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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I watched my grandfather deteriorate and pass away. He was a very religious man and he never said he wanted to die but you could see it in his eyes. The degree to which he suffered and the degree to which he slowly lost all of his dignity cannot be understated. It is one thing to read about it and quite another to see it and understand it because you understand the person who is experiencing a fate that is literally worse than death.

There is a point when suffering becomes so great that a dignified parting from life is a justifiable choice. Setting aside the question of how it is to be financed, everyone has a right to control their own body; including the choice to live or die. For those whose experience of life has become one of constant suffering they should have access to a humane and peaceful way to pass from this world if that is their choice.


All snark aside, this is exactly my point. My grandmother died under very similar circumstances. Im sorry he (and you) had to go through that @Kratesis
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Hidden 7 yrs ago 5 yrs ago Post by Polymorpheus
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Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by SleepingSilence
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I hope you don't find my argument to be an emotional one. I also hope that you recognize my desire for people to both live and die as they please, so long as they don't harm other people.


What you said, is solely an emotional argument...there is no facts or evidence presented in what you replied to me with. You also clearly ignored parts or didn't read the inconvenient truths that this isn't a victimless crime. The law knows that, and people who aren't moral cowards or duplicitous know that too.

voanews.com/a/suicide-has-ripple-effe…

(Just one of many examples/stories.)

Even fucking Vox.com knows it. vox.com/2015/1/23/7868621/suicide-help

1) We don't have the right to suicide

Suicide hurts other people terribly. For some it is fatal: Throughout history people have noted that one suicide can lead to more suicides, in all sorts of groups. After the publication of Goethe's The Sorrows of Young Werther, some young men across Europe killed themselves dressed as Werther, or holding the book, and by many accounts there was a rise in suicide in countries where the book was available.

Now modern statistical studies repeatedly demonstrate the existence of suicide clusters, each representing a real rise in the suicide rate in certain high schools, colleges, regiments, and towns, age groups, and professions. You may remember headlines, over the past few decades, about suicides among farmers, policemen, among teens in the eighties; at certain colleges, or in a particular college dorm. Recently there have been major headlines about a shocking rise in suicide rates among baby boomers, military personnel, and Native Americans (especially the young).

There are a variety of indications of the significance of influence. In the 1970s researcher David Philips, now a sociology professor at University of California San Diego, followed the rise in suicides after the death of Marylyn Monroe and other celebrities and called it the Werther Effect. The rise is strongest for those of the same age and gender as the celebrity. Beyond celebrities, studies show a robust correlation between media reports about suicide and an increase in actual suicide in the area that hears about it, again especially among people of the same age and gender. Media influence on suicide seems especially potent with adolescents and young adults. There is even a dose response, such that more exposure to such news leads to more suicidal behavior.

Victor Hugo rejected suicide because, "As soon as it touches your neighbors, suicide is murder." And Jean Jacques Rousseau had a wise character tell a younger, suicidal friend that suicide must be rejected for many reasons, including that it might cause more suicide. Suicide is too harmful to be a right.

4) Suicide is among the top ten killers of Americans

In 2000 the number of American suicides was 30,000, and it began rising. The last full count was in 2012, and it was up to 40,600. Suicide is the second leading cause of death for people between the ages of 15 and 24. In a recent study of college students, suicide beat out alcohol as a cause of death.

Meanwhile, most suicides are older white men. Women attempt suicide more, but men die of it more. That's most likely because men have more access to guns; in 2010 suicide accounted for 61 percent of gun deaths in the US. Suicide kills more than murder.

When people try to kill themselves and survive, they overwhelmingly report being glad they lived
As for war, a 2012 study showed that more US military personnel died of suicide than of combat or transport accidents that year. (The numbers for 2013 just came out this week: while active military suicides are down, there has been a rise in suicide among reservists.) In the general population suicide recently out-killed car accidents.

The World Health Organization estimated that the global rate of suicide is up 60 percent since 1945. In 2010, in the developed world, suicide became the number-one killer of people ages 15 to 49. Except for the three worst years of the disease, it has killed more people annually than AIDS. Worldwide we are at a million suicides a year.

5) Suicide is often impulsive, such that if the impulse is thwarted, the person lives

When people try to kill themselves and survive, they overwhelmingly report being glad they lived, according to studies and observations by suicidologists. A follow-up on 25 years of people who tried to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge showed 96 percent alive or having died of other causes. We often think of suicide as the unavoidable end point of a life-long battle with agonizing depression, but it often isn't that, or isn't only that. Recent humiliation or loss is very often a determinant.

We think of military suicide as the result of PTSD and other direct results of the wars, but note that the study on military suicides in 2012 showed that a full third of the deceased had never been deployed, while more than half had recently suffered the loss of an important relationship, or a humiliation at work. A recent study of police suicides showed that 64 percent were described as "a surprise." There are news reports of popular and successful college students who gave little sign of depression suddenly ending their lives. If part of the problem is that in certain groups, at certain times, suicide seems like a popular option, it is useful to name that and to be ready to resist it. If you do not want to someday die of suicide, tell yourself now that you are on the lookout for such inclinations and that you are prepared to reject them.

But I don't really feeling like dwelling on this, because I'll be repeating myself. So, I'll just again point out while keeping it purposely brief. If anyone wants to die so bad, they can wait to die like everyone else. Hell you even have the right, to drug and drink your way into an early grave. But suicide, is harming others. Society in general, ones close to you emotionally and the medical field limited resources. All my sources are already available. Look at the cost suicide burdens the medical field, when that is actively taking money away from other ventures of sick people who need care, because according to Penny. Religious sacrifice basically is just as substantiated as cancer, or not getting an Xbox for Christmas for getting the axe, when it comes to allowing and wishing people to die just to bring down society by having everyone witnessing raised fatality rates.

And if you think suicide bombers are something that shouldn't be judged, because they have the right. You're just as abhorrently wrong (and just as morally repugnant) as Penny.

Even pretending to think this is a sensible idea, shows complete utter lack of tact or secondhand knowledge of human relationships, society or the medical field. (also I know this isn't coming from the religious lense, but when I know atheists out there have minds like this...really hard to take the atheists have morals thing very seriously at times.)
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by SleepingSilence
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repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcont…

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5102187






Hidden 7 yrs ago 5 yrs ago Post by Polymorpheus
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Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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All the deaths I know have been violent, some very in-person, so let me preface with that. My experience with it is that they did not want to die and or regretted it in those last waking moments. Perhaps it was fear, utter terror, perhaps it was that they did not entirely know or truthfully intend what they did, or maybe it was just the last bodily reaction to pain. Whatever the case, the largest issue to be taken at least through my eyes, is where does it end?

I loathe the idea of granting people the authority to place their burden upon others just because they wish to die or believe they do. Even if you turned it into a form of systematic killing at the hands of doctors to "ease pain", you are doing little to alleviate the suffering of others. Very different in approach and reaction than say, someone dying in their deathbed.

Others are already making the slippery slope argument for me, plenty of evidence as well, but my point is that the intent to just want to end assumed suffering is all well and good, but these people are utterly compromised. Be it under pain or indignity or psychological distress. Whatever the case, it is an extremely fine line and one that is a box best left closed.
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by POOHEAD189
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I'm going to go ahead and be honest and say I haven't read the entirety of all of the arguments on whether suicide should be prevented at all costs or whether sometimes suicides should be allowed to alleviate suffering. Mostly because I'm either busy or don't have the attention span the past few days. However, I have seen a few of y'alls points on suicide such as it being impulsive, or it being a choice based on other factors, etc. So I am going to post a 5 minute video below that might give some perspective on a few of the lesser points on suicide. Now, to bring a backdrop to the vid:

Back in February 2014, a friend of mine shot himself. He'd already been suicidal before once or twice. One of those time another friend and I drove over to his place and spent the day there to cheer him up. But years later his depression caught up with him, and he shot himself one night, becoming hospitalized for another week or so before he was pronounced dead. Other than his family members, I was his only friend in the city since all of our other friends were going to colleges elsewhere, so I went to visit him in the hospital and met his family, and those ones I'd never seen before either. He was unconscious, and I don't think he ever did regain consciousness again to be honest. But I'm still glad I went to see him.

Now I'm saying this because yes, suicide does hurt many other people. Friends and family, in fact most of my high school went to his funeral. But from his suicide, his family began a huge campaign of suicide aid prevention, and they constantly crusade for people to donate money to the cause and still do their best to stay so upbeat.

Now does that mean I'm glad he died? Not at all. Keenon was my friend. Nor do I think suicide is right under most circumstances. I've been suicidal plenty of times, honestly. But sometimes a suicide doesn't necessarily bring a negative impact to a group of people or a community.

The reason why this story was a backdrop to the video is because below is my friend Keenon's cousin, reading from his journal as he is a suicide survivor himself, and he made this video once Keenon passed. As y'all probably noticed I don't usually post videos, but this one I think is worth listening to because he provides really good points if anyone is interested in the idea of suicide prevention or questions on 'what could be done.'



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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dion
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Suicide is like abortion. If you don't let me legally do it, whether the process is short and fast or long and arduous, I'm going to DIY it. Whether you are for or against legislation, you have to acknowledge that banning it all together will only create more problems. Doctors have an oath but they are human - I think there are cases where doctors helped patients commit suicide one way or another even before legislation was created here in the Netherlands that legalized euthanasia. And although widely critiqued by American idiot politicians, our programs here work overall. They are efficient enough in their goal (lessening the suffering of those that can prove they have a long route of suffering ahead of them with no chance at recovery).

But that is besides the point - the point is, doctors will still help suffering patients, even if it is 'just' leaving a container of pills on the nightstand and subtly hinting that they are leaving for a long enough time for them to overdose. Suicide is something we cannot control because it is the action of another. Yes, it burdens their family and other surrounding actors, but continuing to live burdens the person themselves. And I know who I'd pick if the question were raised if I wanna help myself or others first.

Assisted suicide should be limited to those who truly need it but is not a bad thing in and of itself, euthanasia in the Netherlands has shown that much and it offers a much more respectful 'goodbye' than letting these people suffer endlessly until their deaths - and is certainly more respectful than forcing the person to take their own life in a more gruesome way.

Claiming all suicide is bad is just willfully ignorant.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dolerman
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>Complains that no one in the thread talks politics
>Political talk in the same thread for 3 pages straight
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dion
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>Complains that no one in the thread talks politics
>Political talk in the same thread for 3 pages straight


Might be because you only posted twice (thrice if you count your new post) and they were one (1) loosely related meme and one (1) loosely related video.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

Might be because you only posted twice (thrice if you count your new post) and they were one (1) loosely related meme and one (1) loosely related video.


So you're noticing the pattern.
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<Snipped quote by Odin>

So you're noticing the pattern.


If Dynamo posts < 3 then quality = up.
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<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

Might be because you only posted twice (thrice if you count your new post) and they were one (1) loosely related meme and one (1) loosely related video.


Not that I don't appreciate the ego stroke, but my posting isn't indicative of this entire thread.

<Snipped quote by Odin>

So you're noticing the pattern.


People who complain about this thread who always seem to be here or in your some cases almost never post anywhere else? Yeah I've noticed it.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by IceHeart
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This is why Western Christianity is so flawed. This understanding of hell(or lack thereof) and the after-life is completely incompatible with the understanding of God being all-forgiving AND all-merciful AND all-compassionate/understanding and is simply wrong.


Funny thing here is I completely agree with you for the most part. The doctrine of hell itself is flawed and 'hell' only exists where sinful people make it. So essentially Earth in its current form is our 'hell'. Also there is no such thing as an 'after-life', there is only life and death, the spark of life or nothingness. There is a resurrection where the dead are brought back to life but it is not as separate entities called souls, but as a complete person. A 'living' soul is a flesh and blood person, not some formless thing trapped in our bodies.

God is so compassionate and understanding, that he is willing to look past anything people do if they truly want to accept and follow him and follow through on that promise. He is also compassionate enough to allow his creations to not choose him and go their own way, but as God himself is the source of all life, the natural consequence of that is death. If someone hates God so completely that living forever in his presence would be their own version of 'hell', God will not take their free will away but instead accept their decision and let them go.

God will not give people immortality if it would only bring them misery. Thankfully mortal life on this Earth will not continue forever and the terrible cycle will one day cease to be and those who are saved will be free to live out their eternal lives in the world as it was supposed to be before sin messed everything up. In the end, it's about about God allowing his creations to make the final decision for themselves.
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Funny thing here is I completely agree with you for the most part. The doctrine of hell itself is flawed and 'hell' only exists where sinful people make it. So essentially Earth in its current form is our 'hell'. Also there is no such thing as an 'after-life', there is only life and death, the spark of life or nothingness. There is a resurrection where the dead are brought back to life but it is not as separate entities called souls, but as a complete person. A 'living' soul is a flesh and blood person, not some formless thing trapped in our bodies.


That's weird cult shit, as is

God is so compassionate and understanding, that he is willing to look past anything people do if they truly want to accept and follow him and follow through on that promise. He is also compassionate enough to allow his creations to not choose him and go their own way, but as God himself is the source of all life, the natural consequence of that is death. If someone hates God so completely that living forever in his presence would be their own version of 'hell', God will not take their free will away but instead accept their decision and let them go.


But I'd like to zoom in on the greatest anti-Christian part of this so called Christian doctrine

He is also compassionate enough to allow his creations to not choose him and go their own way, but as God himself is the source of all life, the natural consequence of that is death. If someone hates God so completely that living forever in his presence would be their own version of 'hell', God will not take their free will away but instead accept their decision and let them go.


God as we are clearly given witness will forgive but his divine salvation is provided regardless of anything that happens to someone, or their choices. All our actions are like rags and worthless to someone so grand and enlightened but by HIS mercy we receive eternal salvation and joy completely equally as we are told by the prophets since Abraham.

God will not give people immortality if it would only bring them misery.


it won't

that's not Christianity you're subscribing to m8
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<Snipped quote>

That's weird cult shit, as is

Which part if I may ask? The part where I don't believe in a separate immortal soul or something else?

But I'd like to zoom in on the greatest anti-Christian part of this so called Christian doctrine

<Snipped quote>

God as we are clearly given witness will forgive but his divine salvation is provided regardless of anything that happens to someone, or their choices. All our actions are like rags and worthless to someone so grand and enlightened but by HIS mercy we receive eternal salvation and joy completely equally as we are told by the prophets since Abraham.


Wait, so are you trying to say here that God, has forgiven everybody and will therefore save everybody despite whatever choices or decisions they make? Even if they outright reject God and want nothing to do with him? So all of humanity has no choice in the matter but to be forced to follow God and live forever no matter what they do in the here and now? Way to make freedom of choice completely irrelevant and pointless, if that were the case then everyone is free to do whatever they want at whatever price with no consequences except for what happens to them on this Earth. That is a very dangerous claim to make.

it won't

that's not Christianity you're subscribing to m8


In your opinion. Though I will say my opinions are very different from the mainstream Christian to be sure, but I still consider myself a Christian because I follow Christ.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Xandrya
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I missed some good stuff, didn't I?
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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You can still enjoy the fascinating discussion of how people are doing Iron Age cult practice wrong.
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