Hidden 8 days ago Post by Willy Vereb
Raw
Avatar of Willy Vereb

Willy Vereb The Wordy Engineer

Member Seen 0-12 hrs ago

@Willy Vereb

It's fine for a start, could probably go into more than religion. I know in personal channels me and a few others have talked about some aspects of Prussian society since the end of the wars.
Religion was one sticking point for Frederick William III. So I wanted to cover it. Also long term said attempt had far reaching consequences. It can be reasonably said that in this timeline there will be no Kulturkampf, or if it still happens it'd be quite different. I know quite a few things happen but as a non-German I am not as familiar with this period even after weeks of sporadic research so I left it there. It took me half a hour to confirm that Prussians do believe in God-given right to rule (granted, I wanted to make extra sure for some OCD reason).

Another problem is that between 1809-1825 the details are a fuzzy mess thanks to Nappy destroying Prussia in this timeline and that there aren't enough details in the OP and the Char section to have me know whatever the hell I can even include. A destroyed Prussia is also a gigantic butterfly effect for, surprise, Prussia so I preferred to gloss over the pre-1825 era.

I did include enough implications about social changes to know more about this Prussia. For example it being mainly protestant and liberal-ish leaning gives it less favor by certain German states so Austria has a bit more of a leeway. OTL, the German Empire united by Prussia was almost set in stone after 1815 and Austria was desperately trying to unfuck their very slim chances (and of course failing). This Prussia, ekhm, Prussia-Saxony is weaker than OTL, has a bit more mixed support and didn't exist when OTL the Frankfurt assembly wanted to crown the Prussian king the emperor of Germans.

I do plan to have other sections than just history in the writeup, hopefully it clarifies things further. For example Prussia didn't get all of Rhine-Westphalia. They have a presence there but mostly their pre-war territories. This will also have an impact on Berlin's development and generally the Prussian industrial power. On the other hand they got all of Saxony but then effectively also lost it (it becoming a separate state under the same king). So yeah, an interesting scenario IMO.

Hidden 8 days ago 8 days ago Post by Dinh AaronMk
Raw
GM
Avatar of Dinh AaronMk

Dinh AaronMk brasilian military appreciator

Member Seen 10 hrs ago

<Snipped quote by Dinh AaronMk>Religion was one sticking point for Frederick William III. So I wanted to cover it. Also long term said attempt had far reaching consequences. It can be reasonably said that in this timeline there will be no Kulturkampf, or if it still happens it'd be quite different. I know quite a few things happen but as a non-German I am not as familiar with this period even after weeks of sporadic research so I left it there. It took me half a hour to confirm that Prussians do believe in God-given right to rule (granted, I wanted to make extra sure for some OCD reason).

Another problem is that between 1809-1825 the details are a fuzzy mess thanks to Nappy destroying Prussia in this timeline and that there aren't enough details in the OP and the Char section to have me know whatever the hell I can even include. A destroyed Prussia is also a gigantic butterfly effect for, surprise, Prussia so I preferred to gloss over the pre-1825 era.

I did include enough implications about social changes to know more about this Prussia. For example it being mainly protestant and liberal-ish leaning gives it less favor by certain German states so Austria has a bit more of a leeway. OTL, the German Empire united by Prussia was almost set in stone after 1815 and Austria was desperately trying to unfuck their very slim chances (and of course failing). This Prussia, ekhm, Prussia-Saxony is weaker than OTL, has a bit more mixed support and didn't exist when OTL the Frankfurt assembly wanted to crown the Prussian king the emperor of Germans.

I do plan to have other sections than just history in the writeup, hopefully it clarifies things further. For example Prussia didn't get all of Rhine-Westphalia. They have a presence there but mostly their pre-war territories. This will also have an impact on Berlin's development and generally the Prussian industrial power. On the other hand they got all of Saxony but then effectively also lost it (it becoming a separate state under the same king). So yeah, an interesting scenario IMO.


Well in so far as apps, the only major thing written thus far was that the British let the Prussians take over Hannover for them in an effort to mostly quit the continent. But some things to consider for Prussia:

The post-Napoleonic era is mostly dominated by the politics and intrigues of Austria's prime-minister Metternich who held particularly conservative and anti-revolutionary views and held in high esteem the period before Napoleon and the Revolution that Europe was in. After the final end of the Napoleonic regime IRL and OTL he would have orchestrated to the best of his abilities a sewing together of Europe of old that abided the line that there were people who deserved to rule, and people who deserved to rule; the French, British, Russians, Prussians, Turks, and Austrians namely as the only acceptable rulers. While he abided by a Edmund Burke style of conservatism he was checked by the Emperor who even more conservative and reactionary than his minister just abided by ruler-ruled and there shouldn't even be any stick for the carrot.

But remember too, Vienna was occupied by Napoleon at least twice, so the Austrians aren't as competitive in the German sphere either. Which leaves up in the air what the status of the Austrian-lead common German tariff zone was and their insistence that newspapers and universities needed to be watched and censored to mitigate liberal politics. Both of which over time faded and dissolved over time because it was outside the limits of Austrian influence.

But at home in Prussia, in-so-far as Prussian internal development goes the liquidation of the Junker class would probably play a great deal of effect in what happens. Historically serfdom was abolished but in practice many of those serfs were kept on as tenant farmers especially after the Napoleonic era. The historical effect being that the Prussian Junkers could keep managing to keep a lot of rural Prussians impoverished as a terminally indebted rentier class and they could keep ruling the countryside; also the entry of schnapps and cheap high-alcohol liquors. OTL the land management of the vast estates of the Junkers was abolished and the properties divided up and auctioned off. The result of which may be many more independent farmers in the countryside, and the aristocracy forced into other professions or having to purchase their way back into their old estates like the returning emigres of France. In so far as this goes for Prussia, the new post-Junker rural small-holder creates a much larger group of people more independent than before in terms of being socially, economically, or politically independent. And in an RP that's supposed to be geared towards eventually mass revolution: there may be the main concern.

EDIT - in general I don't think notions of "X people being Y in nature" is any idea that holds water since this sort of thing comes out of a multitude of more directly felt 'physical' experiences. If I were to guess an innate support of the Prussian monarchy would have once been something laundered down to the people through the landowners, their role in the military, and how Germany's major manufacturing bases - Berlin included - fed and supported that institution. But if the cycle is disrupted then it can be different, especially if the King, being supportive of the old aristocracy, whose now soul bastion is the officer schools and clubs, becomes only a monarchy for them and meanwhile small and medium finance is being built up off of small property holders doing what small property holders do.
1x Thank Thank
Hidden 7 days ago Post by Letter Bee
Raw
Avatar of Letter Bee

Letter Bee Filipino RPer

Member Seen 0-12 hrs ago

I am in writer's block again.
Hidden 5 days ago Post by Pagemaster
Raw
Avatar of Pagemaster

Pagemaster Get it? Master of Pages?

Member Online

@Willy Verebwho said I gave you Hannover? Disagree.
Hidden 5 days ago Post by Dinh AaronMk
Raw
GM
Avatar of Dinh AaronMk

Dinh AaronMk brasilian military appreciator

Member Seen 10 hrs ago

On second pass reading the Britain app again I noticed I mis-remembered the Hannover bit. It wasn't given over to Prussia.
Hidden 5 days ago Post by Dinh AaronMk
Raw
GM
Avatar of Dinh AaronMk

Dinh AaronMk brasilian military appreciator

Member Seen 10 hrs ago

I also want to apologize for being a moron and forgetting that Charles X had children and thus heirs

I will eventually be not-lazy and fix that in the relevant bits of the OP and France's app.
Hidden 4 days ago Post by Letter Bee
Raw
Avatar of Letter Bee

Letter Bee Filipino RPer

Member Seen 0-12 hrs ago

@Dinh AaronMk, @Yam I Am, would you guys appreciate Egyptian Cotton for uniforms?
Hidden 4 days ago Post by Dinh AaronMk
Raw
GM
Avatar of Dinh AaronMk

Dinh AaronMk brasilian military appreciator

Member Seen 10 hrs ago

@Letter Bee

Firstly: There is no war in North America, only sporadic uprisings. The United States was subjugated by Britain in 1812 as a response to the pressures of the Napoleonic Wars. It's been several decades since the conquests of the American colonies, so by and large the British have a tight control of the cotton industry, by volume they have the most. The opportunity to claim sky-high cotton prices because of war in the US has passed in this period, that would have been at best 1812-1814, it is not 1812-1814, it is 1836. Don't read the one post by Page as if there is ongoing mass warfare in the United States to raise cotton prices.

Also, when and where did you ever claim Syria? Don't jump the gun.

But if you want to seek French buyers you will need to communicate with the French manufacturers. You will have to speak with the French government to lower the tariffs, not to buy the cotton. But you are still competing with British trade.
Hidden 4 days ago Post by Letter Bee
Raw
Avatar of Letter Bee

Letter Bee Filipino RPer

Member Seen 0-12 hrs ago

@Letter Bee

Firstly: There is no war in North America, only sporadic uprisings. The United States was subjugated by Britain in 1812 as a response to the pressures of the Napoleonic Wars. It's been several decades since the conquests of the American colonies, so by and large the British have a tight control of the cotton industry, by volume they have the most. The opportunity to claim sky-high cotton prices because of war in the US has passed in this period, that would have been at best 1812-1814, it is not 1812-1814, it is 1836. Don't read the one post by Page as if there is ongoing mass warfare in the United States to raise cotton prices.

Also, when and where did you ever claim Syria? Don't jump the gun.

But if you want to seek French buyers you will need to communicate with the French manufacturers. You will have to speak with the French government to lower the tariffs, not to buy the cotton. But you are still competing with British trade.


1.) Ah; to be fair, I did read it as an ongoing protracted war, yes.

2.) In my Nation Sheet, plus the map, which has not been updated to accommodate the new data, and is thus open to misreading.

3.) I might do that, but for now, I will be editing out the post to account for the new data.
Hidden 4 days ago Post by Letter Bee
Raw
Avatar of Letter Bee

Letter Bee Filipino RPer

Member Seen 0-12 hrs ago

@Dinh AaronMkdo you mind reviewing my sheet? If you’re good with the history still, as per the original approval, can you please modify the world map so I don’t have some wanna be “U-S-A! U-S-A!” player diving in there thinking it’s all hunkydorie please?
Pagemaster


Here we go; note that I removed one @ so that Pagemaster isn't bothered by a ping.

Hidden 4 days ago Post by Willy Vereb
Raw
Avatar of Willy Vereb

Willy Vereb The Wordy Engineer

Member Seen 0-12 hrs ago

@Willy Verebwho said I gave you Hannover? Disagree.

That's fine, btw do you find it agreeable that Prussia is restored and given the rest of Saxony but only with the condition that Saxony becomes a separate kingdom and basically a personal union with Prussia (this later is mostly to appease Austria).
1x Like Like
Hidden 4 days ago Post by Willy Vereb
Raw
Avatar of Willy Vereb

Willy Vereb The Wordy Engineer

Member Seen 0-12 hrs ago

BTW, anyone can help me drawing up the map? So I have none of thr Hannoverian territories. No Rhine terriyories aside from some dots. Typical Prussian territories otherwise except that Saxony in its entirety belongs to me, even if in a personal union.

Also no Zelleverin until a few years later. Prussia only reborn since 1825 tends to push back a few things.
Hidden 4 days ago Post by Yam I Am
Raw
Avatar of Yam I Am

Yam I Am Gorgenmast Did Nothing Wrong

Member Seen 12 hrs ago

BTW, anyone can help me drawing up the map? So I have none of thr Hannoverian territories. No Rhine terriyories aside from some dots. Typical Prussian territories otherwise except that Saxony in its entirety belongs to me, even if in a personal union.

Also no Zelleverin until a few years later. Prussia only reborn since 1825 tends to push back a few things.




Here's a current lore-accurate map
3x Like Like
Hidden 3 days ago Post by Willy Vereb
Raw
Avatar of Willy Vereb

Willy Vereb The Wordy Engineer

Member Seen 0-12 hrs ago

<Snipped quote by Willy Vereb>



Here's a current lore-accurate map
Thank you very much!
Although probably I am taking the version of Prussia before they gained significant territory in the Rhine and only had a few exclaves. I don't see Prussia keeping those AND being awarded Saxony, IMO. Maybe I am wrong, though.

Hidden 3 days ago Post by Dinh AaronMk
Raw
GM
Avatar of Dinh AaronMk

Dinh AaronMk brasilian military appreciator

Member Seen 10 hrs ago

@Willy Vereb

It's a lot of map work to go through and find all the tiny unimportant pinpricks on the map that would go to Prussia. Germany is a mess enough as it then to worry about Free Cities.

A lore rationale may just be as simple as the allied nations needing a way to contain France at the Rhine since a multiplicity of small states or even a medium sized German state wouldn't be able to contain the French. As the Congress of Vienna the goal of the Congress of London is to go, "This second time around, France is the culprit" and the Napoleonic Territories built on the East Bank of the Rhine need to be deposed and their territory deconstructed and reconstructed. Appealing to much too Austria too would also mean surrendering Central Europe to Austria and neo-HRE visions for Germany, which also can't happen. Birthing a new Prussia is to secure the Rhine vs France and keep the scales balanced vs Austria while also working with Austria to manage all the Germans despite whatever opposed goals they have.

How it is they achieve that and what the full meaning of that is is a mystery box because even at the IRL Congress of Vienna as at the Congress of London Prussia would be a massive mystery box that has to exist because if it didn't it'll be round three all over again if the Bourbons fuck it up again. The Prussian State may protest, knowing their own Ancien power base is crippled, and any of the minor nobles who got negotiated into it by Talleyrand are just there to be secured vs France.
2x Like Like
Hidden 2 days ago Post by Willy Vereb
Raw
Avatar of Willy Vereb

Willy Vereb The Wordy Engineer

Member Seen 0-12 hrs ago

Border gore is just the way things used to be. My more OOC trouble with accepting the Rhine is that it's Catholic majority which changes important dynamics in Prussia. Kulturkampf, for example. Thr other is that I wanted Ptussia to be weak enough for Saxony to influence them more.

If border gore is a concern we can just list non-Austria and non-Prussia as the German Confederation. Rhine itself may be part of an even tighter confederation of small states of which some are Prussian territories.

If I must take Rhine tho, I can manage. It'd be ugly but with the magic of narrative control it is possible things develop towards religious freedom. Well, more of a religious cold war where Saxony keeps their faith, Prussia keeps their faith and the Rhine is also left alone. All the while they are under one ruler.
But you can see how this all would lead to me dedicate way too much effort into pacifying/subjugating religions and not everything else. Which is why I am so vonflicted on this.
Hidden 2 days ago Post by Dinh AaronMk
Raw
GM
Avatar of Dinh AaronMk

Dinh AaronMk brasilian military appreciator

Member Seen 10 hrs ago

@Willy Vereb

Prussia already has significant catholic populations. They're not the majority, but they are there.

Kulturkampf also being a product of Bismarck is:
1) in the future, beyond the scope of the RP, it's like worrying about the Franco-Prussian War right now.
2) a product of Bismarck, who being a Protestant Junker, may or may not exist or have the influence of his class in Prussian society.
1x Like Like
Hidden 1 day ago Post by Letter Bee
Raw
Avatar of Letter Bee

Letter Bee Filipino RPer

Member Seen 0-12 hrs ago

@Willy Vereb

Prussia already has significant catholic populations. They're not the majority, but they are there.

Kulturkampf also being a product of Bismarck is:
1) in the future, beyond the scope of the RP, it's like worrying about the Franco-Prussian War right now.
2) a product of Bismarck, who being a Protestant Junker, may or may not exist or have the influence of his class in Prussian society.


Accidentally clicked Laugh when I meant to click Like.
↑ Top
© 2007-2017
BBCode Cheatsheet