Brovo

Accents In Roleplays.

If I think about accents I usually just put it as "they said X with a thick, Russian accent" so as to avoid doing the research. Because that is a lot of work for what is probably just a gimmick. Now if I do add an accent, it is usually one I am personally familiar with, or due to the character being ESL and typically stating half of their thoughts (especially when stressed) in another language.

Atheism 2.0 - Atheism using Religions perks.

@Imperfectionist & Gwazi: Now now, settle down kids.

Atheism 2.0 - Atheism using Religions perks.

@Pyro: At work with limited internet at the moment so I can't reply to most of this stuff, but the one thing I wanted to quickly comment on: Empathy is not an ideal, it is an instinct separate and distinct. Same goes for sympathy. These are things most social creatures possess, especially pack-based ones (ex: tribal humans).

The reason this is important to note is because it paves the way for the formation of morality when combined with a sufficient level of intellect. This is why our morals have evolved over time and become more expansive, comprehensive, and complex.

It's also because you are certainly correct about some humans possessing limited or completely vacant empathy and/or sympathy. This is typically due to a mental disorder, though. As well, our intellect makes us capable of overriding base natures, like empathy. Ex: Soldiers being trained to kill.

Atheism 2.0 - Atheism using Religions perks.

So Boerd said
The form in which I exist is crucial. You can't say "So Boerd exists" without defining what "So Boerd" is. Are you telling me you don't believe any of us other posters are even human?

So Boerd is an entity that is most likely human by statistical chance. Also Occam's Razor. Because it requires the least number of assumptions in comparison to, say, assuming you are an AI, or an alien, or a deity.

Also yes, I can say pretty... Easily... That So Boerd exists without defining what So Boerd is, because... You're talking to me. Is this cryptic? Am I talking in an ancient, dead language to you?

Again, the whole Susie versus Susie has superpowers thing in terms of how much evidence is required to believe a claim, but, hey, you'd rather keep riding this No True Scotsman right into the dirt, then rape the dead horse you rode in on, so... Be my guest. Enjoy your necrophilia.

EDIT

tl;dr: Unidentified entities and objects still exist, I've merely yet to identify them, because I'm not arrogant enough to claim that I know what everything is the moment I see it. Also No True Scotsman fallacy. Hardcore.

The Last Bastion: Bunker Chicago

"Have the peace the world denied you." --Brucey, Page 1.

(NOTE: Post was written quickly before having to move out July 1st. If there are errors it may take me a couple days to address them due to intermittent internet access until July 4th or 5th, if any at all. Thank you for your understanding.)

---

Central Apartments

---

The next few seconds would prove key to getting out of this situation alive. Thus, here it started.

Kai's grenade sailed threw the air and without any ability to duck for cover, the medium armoured U-ARM agent hid behind the heavily armoured one, whom brought his arms over his waist and went down onto his knees, bowing his head. The grenade explodes, and the shrapnel has utterly no effect on him, though a howl of pain would make it clear that the medium armoured one had been injured in some way.

Kiku's grenade toss was noticed by Alyss and with reflexes that could only be described as supernatural, catches and throws the live grenade at the enemy. The second grenade lands behind the heavily armoured U-ARM soldier. "AMERICA FORGIVE M--" Is the last thing the medium armoured U-ARM soldier can scream before the grenade explodes at point blank, shredding his leg and putting several pieces of shrapnel into his chest and neck, killing him instantly.

Matthew's inaccurate spray of bullets doesn't seem to hit anything, perhaps he should try aiming.

Junko turns the corner to see a mechanical arm reach over the edge of the hole in the opposite wall. A head peeks out as she aims down her sights, a mechanical eye greets her sights and she squeezes the trigger, the round barely missing as the third U-ARM agent ducks the moment he notices the scope. Those were cybernetic implants: U-ARM wasn't supposed to have those, those were only a very recent technological discovery by Washington bunker, the specifics kept secret by the Council of ADAM. However, it was not all for naught. Retraining her sights on the heavily armoured soldier as he stood up she fired again. While the armour on his chest was a little thick to be punched through with bullets, her round managed to find its way through his left knee, blowing through the armour and shredding into the tissue and bone. Blood starts to seep through the newly made crack in his knee pad as he limps into a room on the right side, next to the one Kai, Kiku, and Abimael were located in.

The cybernetic soldier manages to quickly pull himself up and scrambled past his dead friend to a room on the left, next to the one Alyss was located in. They had a brief moment to either run or make a brave last stand. Abimael was absorbing the blood on the floor that Kiku had left in the room, and it almost seemed to empower him somewhat, make him look stronger. Kiku's work with the med kits completed, though the painkillers would make her feel woozy. Still, the spines on her back now tingled with caution looking at Abimael. She could almost sense that he had grown stronger, as could Kai detect this.

A voice crackles to live on their radios. It was Jenive. "Me, Matthew, Junko, and our mystery woman friend can cover Abimael's escape. Kai can help Kiku and Abimael out before U-ARM gets to do whatever it is they're planning." There was heavy breathing on the other end of the radio. Jenive's injury was causing her a great deal of pain. "Once you are all out of there, I can get Junko to safety with my jet pack, and our... Mystery woman... Has her own." She takes a deep breath. "Ready..." Alyss seems to ponder the plan for a moment before nodding in agreement with it, motioning for Kai to help Kiku up and out into the hallway while she quickly reloaded her pistols.

With any luck, they would all get out alive. Maybe.

---

South West

---

Liam follows Brucey's plan to the letter, as does Nathaniel. Despite the conflicting orders it seemed to be absolutely no concern for the biologist to leave the potential biological samples behind. Perhaps he already had his own, or he didn't think it was worth the risk. Either way, Annie ran after Nathaniel, as the wolf atop the APC leaped for the torso of Daniel's mech, having been largely unaffected by the low calibre rounds of the pistol. With his compatriots fleeing and his attention focused on attempting to coat the area the Alpha had been in, in flame, he found himself at the mercy of the wolf's merciless assault of claws and fangs. As a claw manages to finally rip through the heavy armour into his cockpit, inches away from his chest, a laser blast knocks the wolf off the top of the APC with such force so as to rip it from its claw, orange liquid splattering the consoles inside the mech and Daniel himself. Presumable, he reached for his gas mask to prevent death, which left only one sound in his ears. A dreaded one for every pilot.

"Pilot chamber compromised, console damage detect, reactor compromised, reaching critical mass. Pilot must eject."

Daniel's attempt to radio Donovan yielded nothing but static. How unfortunate that the fog still seemed to retain its anti-radio quality.

The laser shot from Marvin was sufficient to save Daniel's life, but not the mech. Still. His HE missile read off as ready, and as more wolves descended from the top of the bio-tower, which had consumed almost half of the APC already, he had an easy shot at them to delay reinforcements, at least for a few seconds.

Brucey's sweeping pattern of fire, combined with covering fire from Liam, was sufficient to keep additional reinforcements at bay. Both Nathaniel and the Biologist as a result make it behind Brucey, though sufficiently far enough so as to prevent him from stepping on them.

Cannon shots from a tank start to pierce the fog as a static radio signal manages to come through in morse code. Loosely translated, it stated: "E-V-A-C-H-E-R-E-M-O-V-E-B-A-C-K", even Junko would be able to hear the sounds of a Chinook and a few vehicles moving onto the street in South West, just outside of the fog. Likely flat trucks for the mechs, and the Chinook for the soldiers. All they had to do was run.

Moving back they would also see the desecrated remains of a mech, along with a blood stain in a ripped open cockpit. Sam was dead, and his mech beyond salvageable.

---

South East

---

Derek nods in agreement with the plan, though his movements belied uncertainty. He was a pilot, not a grunt. This was not his forté by any stretch of the imagination, even as he accepted the pistol and moved up to the third floor with everyone else. James' thermal scope would spot two figures moving towards the staircase, both running, though one carried a large, strange weapon, likely the chainsword, and the other carried a shotgun. Morai bursts out from around a corner, looking at the trio holding at the staircase he immediately jumps towards them, and lands on his back, remaining on his back so they could have a clear shot. The mutant turns the corner and immediately receives several pellets from the shotgun to its knees, slowing it down immensely as every conceivable manner of pain rained from James, Peter, and Derek over Morai's head and into the creature. It took almost fourty rounds before it finally fell onto its knees. Even then, as they all ran out of ammo in their clips, it wasn't dead. It did however seem at least incapacitated while it regenerated, orange liquid bleeding out of the several holes in its barely recognizable female form.

Morai scrambles back up to his feet and moves for the trio, panting as he does. The med kit work from earlier was keeping him on his feet, but no amount of med kits could make up for the wizened look beneath his eyes, or the beginnings of gray forming in his hair. While he wasn't elderly, he sure wasn't young anymore. He looks at James and manages an exhausted chuckle. "Maybe... I should take... My own advice... More often."

Peter would spot a few of the white humanoids ascending the stairs to the third floor at that point. He still had enough ammo to gun one down, though two more quickly took its place. Derek stood up and backed partway up to the fourth floor as he fired every round in his pistol and started reloading. "Hey y'all don't know 'bout you but we should get a move on 'fore those fucks make me join in their little shit parade!"

Meanwhile, Georgia and Carolyn were quickly working on an explosive. A few giggles between them, and Georgia produced forth an explosive with a small christmas light on it. "SPARKLY PLUG!" She yelled into the radio as Carolyn snatched it from her. "Explosive is ready, we can get out anytime now."

---

South East: Sewers

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Adam nods in response to Eira's softness. He takes the pistol offered and checks to make sure it's armed, though his inexperience with firearms showed immediately. He knew the basics, nothing more. "A pleasure." He responds as Roman introduces himself, Adam repeating himself to Roman as well. He took his position in the middle as requested. Roman's radio attempt got a response, from a politician... Ryan Dufont, the council member of ADAM who ruled over Bunker Chicago, responded. "This is Ryan, all of our local air-power is focused on others asking for help, however, if you can get through the sewer system, you'll reach an underground outpost of ours. From there we can easily get you home. Set one of your radios to frequency..." The sounds of papers being flipped through could be clearly heard through the radio. From the sounds of it, he had a lot of them on hand. "... One-Zero-Six-Point-Three. You will hear a light buzzing noise. The louder it is, the closer you are. It should be... South, generally. Once at the outpost you'll be taken above ground and driven here... That is all." Ryan then cuts out the transmission, leaving them there to figure out what to do.

Adam looked around the sewer they were in. Presently it only went south, though a couple hundred meters in the distance, it looked like it split off south-east and south-west. Above them was, of course the sewer grate they had came from. Behind them, the sewer line devolved into a clusterfuck of bio-tendrils and other such incomprehensible monstrosities a mere half a kilometer away. It seemed to pulse and whisper, though for the two non-mutants, it didn't really mean anything beyond the fact that it was unearthly. "Alright... Well." Adam says as he clears his throat, neither his gas mask or voice giving away his emotional state of mind. "If it's... Generally south... Ahhh... South west? Anyone want to try that? I've never heard of a sewer outpost before."

Legend of Renalta 2: Reborn

@Everyone: I'm moving out July 1st and may not have Internet for upwards of a week. If I can't get a post up I'll attempt to keep everyone up to date on what's going on using my work place net on my phone.

Ergo, for obvious reasons, posts from the GM (moi) may be delayed.

The Last Bastion: Bunker Chicago

@Everyone: Attempting to rush order a post, I'm moving out July 1st and may not have Internet for upwards of a week. If I can't get a post up I'll attempt to keep everyone up to date on what's going on using my work place net on my phone.

Ergo, for obvious reasons, posts from the GM (moi) may be delayed.

EDIT

@Everyone: POST UP! Because I can rush order posts like it ain't nobody's business, mmhmmmmm~

Anyway. Quick things to add. If you wanna help your GM out, someone who has the spare time, try to make a list of the NPC's I've made. Just names. I remember all of the NPC's and their purposes, skill sets, etc, sometimes I just forget their names, and I lost my list of names recently thanks to this whole hubbub about moving out. *_*

I'll try to be online at work on my phone to answer any questions or give any additional information necessary.

The update to LoR 2's system "unofficially" applies here if you've seen it. If not, I'll officially apply it next week when I can get the next post up.

"What happens if we finish a mission before others do?" Depending on the circumstances you could redeploy to help others, or if the missions are already full, be on standby. Or if that's not an option I'll advance you chronologically ahead so you can do post-mission debriefs, build relationships, and so on, while everyone else catches up to you.

Anyway, mad rush, gotta go. In case work net doesn't work, see y'all in a few days.

ACA supreme court ruling, re Religious Exception

Oh. Joy.

Atheism 2.0 - Atheism using Religions perks.

So Boerd said
I didn't ask for proof of my existence, I asked for proof of my humanity. Try again.

Why in the world would I bother trying to prove your humanity, when most concepts of humanity are intangible, or not exclusive to the human race?

Even if we're talking specifically "prove you are a human being"... Why? Why should I prove that you are a human being? You are the entity in question, you prove whatever it is you are if you want, or don't, it makes no difference to me. The only thing that matters is that you exist, and you prove it by existing, where as deities do not exist, and prove it by not existing. Which is the only point I was making.

Grizzle Bear said
What if I told you that upon finding out my God didn't exist, absolutely nothing would change in my day to day life?

Then I'd say you're pretty moral and I have no quarrel with you.

Imperfectionist said We already went over that, So Boerd, and Brovo answered well. Go look in that post.

To be frank this thread is stoopid big. I don't blame people for not reading.

Imperfectionist said What I think happened was that I wrote myself into a corner. I rambled way too much to rebut a very simple fallacy, and Brovo used that as an opportunity to show off his cleverness.

Uh oh. Here we go again.

Imperfectionist said He answered all of the points I cared about in a very satisfactory way, but the rest he seemed to be kind of an asshole about, especially the "answering every question" thing. So, I was torn. One the one hand, I was satisfied, because there had been a satisfactory clarification of his original point. On the other, I was pissed, because the post had an air of elitism and "how could you possible not know these things, you peasant?"

*Pushes up snobby glasses* Advanced role player. It happens. *Sips tea* Swear I'm not that bad though. *Sits on throne made out of the skulls of player's hopes and dreams*... No, really.

Imperfectionist said As too often happens, pissed won out, because the only option for satisfied was "Thank you for clarifying. Goodbye." The problem with that was, despite his cleverness, he still did not convince me on any of the points beyond the statement I made about cosmic intelligence. So, I was pissed and incoherent, I did a bad job of saying things, and I misconstrued legitimate argument as intentional inflammation. I've already apologized for both.Here is an actual rebuttal of each of those points:

Okay. Here goes.

Imperfectionist said Math - I was unclear. There are lots of different kinds of math, and I was referring to the "math as the language of the universe," not the arbitrary math we use in everyday life. I brought up the golden mean as an example, because we did not create the mean; we discovered it. We have discovered formulae and created mathematical theories that describe the manner in which the universe works, and the point is that those relationships existed before we discovered them. We did not create that kind of math. It's always been there, the underlying order of the universe, just waiting to be expressed.

Yes, and? The universe has rules, we're figuring them out. While quite extraordinary, that's no evidence or prerequisite for a supernatural explanation, leave alone one involving a deity.

Imperfectionist said As for physics, well, we don't generally discover that is wrong, I mean, much of Newtonian physics is stil followed today, like his stuff on thermodynamics and motion. Neither relativity nor quantum mechanics have said "the laws of thermodynamics are wrong", because... They aren't. They still work. We've always been moving towards getting the biggest possible picture, and we may have rejected some of Newton in favor of the two new kids in town, but not all of it. And math will always be there, waiting for us to catch up.

Alright. Okay. I agree. I don't think I ever disagreed with this.

Imperfectionist said Math being different in other dimensions - Again, I should have been more clear on the kind of math I meant. Arbitrary number systems =/= math in its entirety, I'm sorry for not clarifying. What I should have said was, "Is the speed of light different in other dimensions?" or "Does relativity apply in other universes?" In a nutshell, are we truly unique, here in our expanding bubble, or is there a grand order that spans all possible aspects of existence? I don't really have an answer for this one, it's kind of high concept, and obviously there's not yet any method of traveling to other dimensions to test such things. I'm just indulging myself.

Well as I said before, we can't ever prove other dimensions exist or do not exist under the premise that they're beyond our physical realm, so... I guess your interpretation of how time works would imply whether or not there are other universes, but until such a thing can be physically proven, through skepticism, I'll go with "no".

Imperfectionist said Existence of other dimensions - Pretty straightforward, though to me, if you can't prove it one way or the other, that's all that I think should be said. We will eventually prove it one way or the other, and until then we just whether they exist or whether they influence our own dimension or universe in any meaningful way. :) So, semantics aside, we're basically on the same page.

There's no evidence they exist, either, so until there is some, I don't believe they exist. It'd be fascinating if they did, but until there's evidence... Ehhh'...

Imperfectionist said Is there truly any past or future? - You say yes, and my only rebuttal is the fallibility of memory and the imperfection of prediction. With your utilitarian view, it probably doesn't matter whether they are actually real or not, because as we perceive them they are useful tools for living as best we can and not going insane. Fair enough. Just because the universe have only been created last week, it doesn't mean that really matters all that much in the grand scheme. I can dig it. If that is not what you would argue, please let me know.

Sure... Kinda? Because, yes, Solipsism is a thing, and it's not entirely unreasonable considering, again, if you go far enough into the philosophical rabbit hole, you really can't prove anything is real beyond your own mind. However, back to my core principle: Skepticism. If the universe was created last week, I have no physical evidence to prove that, and a mountain of evidence against that (ex: carbon dating), so... I don't believe it to be true. Now could I be wrong? Certainly, I could also be wrong about kobolds with their cute little shovels and candle-obsessed ways, but as it stands... No evidence, so I don't believe it.

Now to take a quick break from answering to explain why we can't see eye to eye on the same topics, even if we see the same evidence.

See what we have here is a plain difference in how to view the universe and it's why we clash. You view it as possibility: If it might exist, and it seems plausible, then you can't say it isn't real. I view the universe under the scope of pure skepticism, I don't use faith in general: If there's no evidence for it, I don't believe it exists, even if I know that, as a theory or concept, it's plausible in some manner. However, if something does have a plausible theory (ex: the Earth is round), and I have methods by which to verify that theory (ex: Travel the globe, take pictures from space, measure the circumference using shadows on a sun dial, etc), I can test it. If I can test it, I can see if it holds true or not. If it holds true after a repeated battery of tests, take it to peer review. If it survives the gauntlet of peer review, it's a scientific theory. If it's a scientific theory, then it's the closest we have to the truth of how the universe functions, and I believe it confidently until something comes along to disprove it or change it..

So when you say something like "doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things" based on a possible scenario (ex: universe created last week), my answer is "well it does matter, because I can't verify the claim, there's no evidence put forth for it, so..."

It's not that I'm trying to disprove your interpretation of the universe. It's more that I'm trying to show my interpretation of the universe doesn't use faith anywhere, it uses reason, and fact, and sometimes the facts can be wrong, or misinterpreted, but I don't take that as a bad thing--I think it's a good thing. It means whatever I thought I knew was wrong, and I can learn something that is more likely the truth instead of the error I once knew.

Essentially: What I can agree on is the idea that a deity might exist, or elves might exist, or planet X might exist, or alternate universes might exist... However, they are all on the same shelf of being unverifiable claims. Which means that, as it stands, I have to reject them all under the same principle that I reject Santa Claus and the Philosopher's Stone. HOWEVER! I don't judge people for believing in these things. What a person believes is... Ultimately... Irrelevant, to who they are. So if someone believes that the universe is the byproduct of a child's imagination, but is otherwise a good person who donates to charity and is kind to his neighbours and so on... I will treat them as being a good person who donates to charity and is kind to his neighbours: With respect, and admiration, even if I think his belief about the origins and state of the universe is silly.

That should... Maybe make things clearer in a less "asshole"-ish way, right? Because I'm serious I do have a hard time reading tone in text.

Imperfectionist said What time, and why does it exist? - Hmm. Again with the "arbitrary creation by humans" thing. Again, I was unclear, and I apologize. Just as a side-thought, though, in the imperial system the idea is that things are measured in real-world terms, and they were eventually morphed into standard measurements. The "foot" is about the length of a human foot. The "yard" is about the length of a stride or pace, three feet. Miles and inches and the like, though, I have no idea. Overall, I agree that metric is probably better for things like measuring distances between places, or large things like buildings or what have you, but on very specific, mostly human-scale measurements (height, for one), centimeters have never cut it for me. I love feet and inches. Anyway, sorry, that's a tangent.

That's fine. I like Metric just because multiples of ten make everything much simpler, but, hey, Imperial has worked for centuries, I still give out height and weight in feet, inches, and pounds, so. Can't totally knock it.

Imperfectionist said You gave a small, half a sentence analysis on the time I wanted to refer to, and you said that it exists beyond flawed human measurements... Which is just what I'm going to say as well. Time is a force that gives form to space, one cannot meaningfully exist without the other, and to me it smacks of some kind of grand natural order to the universe, even if it isn't an intelligence in the traditional sense. A creation force, a force of order that generated space and time and determined the speed of light and the Fibonacci sequence, and the relationships between the elements, all of that. It isn't too far-fetched, I think, and before you start, it also has nothing to do with the patriarchal Abrahamic God. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a possibly unintelligent , some kind of cosmic power that's embodied by these things. Maybe it has consciousness, maybe it doesn't... But is it more likely than spontaneity? I will wager yes. Does it matter, in a utilitarian sense? No, but at the very least it's an interesting thought.

Ah, and here again, the different world views come plain into the light. You see some form of intelligence or order where I see a mystery. I don't know why the universe operates the way it does. It's intriguing, but then, the universe to me looks more like a set or series of fundamental laws that, individually, are pretty simple, and wouldn't require some extraordinary, supernatural force to create. Yet, as you mix more and more of them, they allow greater complexities to arise, which creates more laws that are bound to the current fundamentals in play, and how much each one is influencing it. So for example, the universe is always expanding from its centre point--where scientists think the big bang occurred--which means energy, matter, and so on, is being eternally stretched thinner and thinner. Eventually we'll reach null point, that is, everything that exists, decays.

For example: Gravity as a concept is pretty simple. The more mass something has, the greater its attraction to other mass is, and the greater the force required to cause momentum. It's the difference between kicking a paper bag, and a brick. The brick is probably smaller, but has greater mass, so it requires a significant amount more energy to propel it anywhere than the paper bag does, which might get picked up in the wind before you can even kick it and sent off to choke a penguin somewhere.

Yet, take a look at that example. If you kick the brick and the paper bag, they'll probably only go about the same distance (assuming you have a reasonable amount of strength), and the greater the amount of strength you use, the further the brick will go in comparison to the bag. Why? Oh, other factors, like air resistance, terminal velocity, and so on. Suddenly it's not nearly so simple as "the heavier it is, the more force is required to move it". I mean, yes, it's true: It's much easier to move the paper bag than the brick, but additional force above and beyond what is necessary has a greater effect on the brick than the paper bag.

And this is just kicking a brick and a paper bag. The rest of the universe is immeasurable more complex than this and we've had a meagre five... Six... Seven thousand thousand years or so to figure it out really, the vast majority of that time spent by people attempting to enforce one world view or another as being universal truth. (True "science" as we know it hadn't really flourished until the enlightenment period.)

So I don't claim to know things like why gravity works the way it does, or why the universe exists. If anything, that's beyond the realm of science to figure out and science doesn't try to figure that out--science figures out the what of things, and the how, not the why. To me, though, in absence of any evidence of a supernatural reason for life or the universe or otherwise, I hold by a simple principle: The purpose to life, is to find the purpose to your life. Whether that's searching for the answer for why we're here, or searching for innumerable truths, or creating art, or helping your fellow human beings, or animals... To find what gives your life meaning and then pursuing it. That is the purpose of life. No matter if that purpose is ruling a country or playing every video game that has ever been released! Whatever goals you have, pursue them, endlessly, tirelessly, until you accomplish that which you want most out of life.

That way, regardless of whether there is or is not an afterlife or rebirth or otherwise... When you are on your death bed, and you are staring at the white ceiling, your vision fading you, you'll look back on all of your conquests, failures, victories. All of your friends, family, lovers, pets, adventures... Your happiest moments, most sorrowful moments, and you will die knowing you did what you loved most out of life, instead of dying realizing that you spent your whole life worrying about what happens after it's gone.

Still. Talk about tangential ranting.

Grizzle Bear said
Morality is rather subjective. People can and have spent lifetimes arguing over what is and isn't morally just. I'll put it this way though, I do not need religion to be a good person. I do need it to be the best person I can be.

Eh'. If it helps you, good, I suppose. I've found skepticism has been a good enough methodology to form the basis of a good morality, but hey, so long as you're a good person, and you don't want to shove religion into science class rooms, I'm not much for caring what it is you believe, whether that's in a god or a spaghetti monster or nothing at all. *Has no argument really, because I have nothing against this position*

Grizzle Bear said
Fair enough, it's a long thread and I admit I only skimmed bits of it. Personally I believe there is a hole more to the atheism vs religion discussion than does or doesn't God exist. But if that's all just rehashing the same old junk for you guys, my apologies.

Well, eh'. Mostly it is just whether or not you believe god does nor does not exist. The discussion has evolved over time to include several other arguments, like evolution vs creationism and whether or not you can be moral without religion/god and philosophy and so on. At the end of the day though being atheist does not mean you also believe in evolution, nor does it mean you believe in subjective morality, or otherwise. (Though it may make you more predisposed to believing these things due to most atheists coming from rational skepticism prevailing over faith.)

At the end of the day, though, atheism is just not believing any deity exists. Technically you could be a Buddhist atheist, as there are sects of Buddhism that do not have any gods at all. Most nowadays use it in place of Freethought--which is the idea that I tend to follow: Unless you can physically prove it exists, you can't know it exists, so it probably doesn't. The amount of evidence required is also comparative to the "fantastical" quality of the claim: I can easily believe you have a friend named Susie due to there being many people and pets named Susie, so statistically, odds are good that you've met at least one thing in your life named Susie. Now if you claimed Susie has pyromania powers, or Susie could read my thoughts... That's a more fantastical claim, and requires more fantastical evidence as a result. Logical, right?

It's also why you find some of the more "upper tier" atheist blogs, channels, podcasts, and so on, tend to also call themselves "freethought" or "free thought". They're aware of the history of their movement and show it to those who also know it with a mere two words.

Atheism 2.0 - Atheism using Religions perks.

Imperfectionist said Eurgh. <-- This is the sound I make when I read a wall of quotes and snark. It's too artificial, in my opinion, too focused on making fun of every sentence and making sure you push me so far into the ground that making an effective rebuttal is nigh-impossible... I mean, in all seriousness, Brovo, how in the name of am I supposed to answer that?

Patiently and one at a time, if you wanted. Or only specific pieces that interest you, if you wish. The argument is cut up like that specifically to make it easier to digest and reply to in an orderly manner.

Or like, just resort to heaping amounts of ad hominem, I'm sure that helps facilitate good discussion.

Imperfectionist said Yes, you are cleverer than me, Brovo. Congrats.

>Complains about snark
>Snarks

Imperfectionist said I've spent the last two gorram hours attempting to respond, and it boils down to this: You clarified. You weren't talking about certainty, you were talking about reasonable skepticism. I can respect that. The way that you originally said it was flawed, and I simply hope you do not use that type of in the future.

Brovo said Atheism is a natural end point to logical skepticism: If I can't prove it's physically real, I cannot believe in it

This is as ground down to simple fine powder as I can possible make it and this is the position I started with and still stand by. If fantastic evidence for a deity appears, and it's scientifically verifiable and all that jazz, I'll follow it. If not, if I can't physically prove it's real... Then I cannot believe in it.

Again. I'm not sure how this is flawed at all considering the two statements are identical save that one has inferred meaning and the other is an excessively chunky way of saying the same thing, but I digress.

Imperfectionist said That's it in a nutshell.

That's all folks!

Imperfectionist said The rest... Whatever. You got me. I'm neurotic, you're rational, and you don't give a damn how the golden mean came to be, or what time really is, or whether you can trust your perceptions. And your mind is probably a lot healthier because of that. Goodnight.

Except I told you what time is, both that there is real, physical, measurable time that is affected by gravity and momentum, and human perceptions of it. I also fully stated that if you go down the rabbit hole enough the only thing you can believe with absolute certainty is that your mind/consciousness is real. Nothing else beyond that can be "proven" beyond an absolute shadow of a doubt. Also have no idea where the golden mean came into this.

And I never claimed to be in any way superior, healthier, or otherwise, to you.

Honestly I apologize if I came across as unnecessarily cruel or otherwise towards you, I just aimed for humour, nothing more. I've also tried to stress to you before that I have a hard time reading inferred tones in voices, leave alone text written out in the Internet, so however you interpreted it to cause offense, well, it was not intended.