Brovo

Russia in Crimea

HeySeuss said
Bingo, you said it so I don't have to. It's an authoritarian government (some totalitarian leanings when it comes to nationalism and violence against gays) with some very traditionalist elements to it.

He's taken a page out of the book of Facism. Make a scapegoat? Check. One national party? Check. Kill or imprison anyone who could stand in your way? Check. Inspire nationalist fervour based on race or culture? Check.

This is the basic setup for Empire. If we're lucky, he'll take Crimea and be done with it, snuggling up to his warm water port.

If not, well... Anyone got a nuclear bunker for me to chill in, by chance?

Hidden Motivations?

Politicians take the burden of secret knowledge that the common public cannot and should not. The history of ULTRA is an intriguing example of where political and military secrets ended up being used for the greater good.

If politicians were perfectly honest and spoke of everything they knew, modern society would have ground to a screeching halt by now.

Governments cannot function without secrets.

"You're a Fake Geek!" and Sexism among Geeks/Nerds/Etc (us)

thinkertron2000 said The lengths that people reach towards to try and explain why feminism is unnecessary is depressing and disappointing, Brovo, I know you're just trying to do what you think is right, but you're severely undereducated about the world (also about feminism, literally nobody talks like that dude).

#1: In this thread I didn't claim feminism was unnecessary anywhere. In fact, I quite emphatically stated that there are still problems that can be resolved--that is indirect support for feminism.

#2: My disagreeing with you doesn't make me uneducated.

#3: Ad hominems don't help your arguments.

Brovo said Is society perfect? No. Does it still need work? Of course, it probably always will

Again, this is a perfect example of the victim complex. I don't agree with you, so I must be completely against you.

Also, ad hominems still don't help your argument, madame.

thinkertron2000 said Have you ever heard of the Bechdel test?

Have you ever heard about the fact that it was originally a joke that came from this comic that was used to give the characters a reason to go home and watch movies they liked at home?

thinkertron2000 said It goes like this: "A movie passes the Bechdel test if two women, with names, talk to each other, about something other than a man". Which seems simple enough, right? But FAR too few movies pass this test, it's kind of ludicrous. And before you respond with another boring overused (and, to be honest moronic) point: no, the Bechdel test cannot be accurately used to find out of a movie is sexist or not, it's used to illustrate a problem.

It's not a moronic point to note that the Bechdel test is woefully under-equipped to tackle the problem of sexism. I'm not even sure why you bothered to bring it up when you just openly admitted that it cannot be used to accurately test if a movie is sexist or not. LoTR and Star Wars both fail the test and they both feature incredible kickass women: One kills an incredible powerful champion of Sauron with only a little hobbit to help her and the other leads a space rebellion against a space empire that can blow up planets... In space!

Plus, look at the movie industry now, compare it to the movie industry of the 50's and 60's. We've made insanely significant strides in making equality a real thing, with strong female characters that don't have to play second fiddle to men anymore. Men still fill the majority of lead roles but not all of them anymore. Give it more time and things will get better as time progresses. I mean even Disney finally started to change with Brave, giving audiences a princess that was a friggin' badass, not some prissy stuck-up damsel in distress.

Again. Is it perfect? No. Of course not. Is it better than before? Yes. Of course it is. Will it get better with further time and pressure on the right points? Yes, of course it will.

thinkertron2000 said I'm not going to educate you on feminism,

You don't have to. I already know what feminism is. I idolize the first wave feminist movement personally as a bunch of incredible powerful women whom made it a point to declare that they were equal to men without having to sacrifice their femininity. At the same time they didn't have to be bound to the social constructs of femininity to be women if they so chose. It was amazing.

thinkertron2000 said if you want to read more, this is one of the best articles I've read identifying a problem with our society: [url]http://badassdigest.com/2013/11/14/we-need-to-change-how-we-talk-about-rape/[/url]

Your link is broken.

Though in all seriousness, nice way to use a blog entry on a site known to be biased towards women which is written in all caps and talks down to the audience like they're five year olds.

This would maybe be passable as a bronze-level citation in a college essay.

Now, instead of recommending you to a counter-blog post chalked full of biased information as well, I think I'll try educating you on what feminism is.

Here, try reading a book. This one is about the valiant five in Canada. It goes over their struggles to be taken seriously and their fights for equality and liberty. It also pretty clearly states how they won nearly everything they fought for. You know what the main ingredient was though? Time. It took time. It took a lot of time.

thinkertron2000 said and before you mention this too: That's written by Film Crit Hulk, he writes in all caps and in hulk speak, he has very good reasons for doing so (which aren't important right now), just go with it.

They are important to me because I hate all caps and it's seriously written with the intention to talk down to men based on its tone.

Oh, and for fucks sake, no, I'm not a sexist for disagreeing with most points of the modern feminist movement. To clarify the meaning of sexism as according to dictionary.com:

noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.

I do not discriminate or devalue women in any manner, nor hold women to any traditional stereotype or sexual role. I mean, good god, Legend of Renalta, my star role play, my magnum opus, has two lesbian couples in it, it has women at all levels of society.

I seriously can't possible emphasize this point enough: I am not uneducated on feminism just because I disagree with you, I am not incapable of understanding hatred or discrimination just because I was born with a different set of sexual organs than you, and I am not sexist for pointing out that the statistical evidence is so heavily weighed against patriarchy in the first world that I shouldn't even need to cite any sources for it, or for disagreeing with the modern movement at most points.

Now, if you want, you can ask me what I think is still sexist. I could list out examples of it even, where I think we could do better, how we could do it better...

...Or you can keep trying to talk down to me and call my points moronic without making even the slightest effort to address them in a constructive way like an adult would.

The choice is yours. Choose wisely.

ShonHarris said So before I go into this I just want to make a couple things clear: 1) I do not intend to enter one of our notoriously long argument things. I'm going to throw in my two cents and will respond as necessary, but really am seeking to supplement an otherwise agreeable post, and 2) I'll define my terms as needed and am happy to do so upon request if I miss something, as I know many may come to this from different places and our terms may be a big part of that. Oh, and 3) I have solid respect for Brovo and the OP.

Well then we shall have an agreeable debate old chap! I missed you. It's nice not to be told that I'm ignorant/a hate monger/etc from an opposing view point once in a while.

ShonHarris said That said... There are absolutely those who've adopted victim complexes in today's world, but I think we should talk about that statement further. Some who blame others for their challenges may do so to cope with personal, buried issues, but others may well be responding to very real experiences of oppression. Women have historically been shelved and blatantly labelled as unworthy of citizenship, national service, voting rights, and today, control of their body and equal pay.

Yes. I can't disagree to this really. The pay gap is startling though not entirely unexpected (pay gap is calculated by average rate of pay across the entire gender, take into account pregnancy leave and that women are often the primary care givers to children and many have their careers slowed or even stopped for multiple years in comparison to their male counterparts, which aids in causing the discrepancy.) The control over their own body is something I throw my hat off and fight with the feminists on. Women should choose what happens to their own bodies. The fact that this is still a discussion in the modern world is frankly sad.

ShonHarris said Many of these issues have only been combated in the last century, and many of these examples of inequality have been seen by us and our parents. This is an example of systematic oppression.

It's also an example of peaceable change. The only kind of change that has been quick historically has been brought about through violence or tyranny. Ergo why I constantly urge patience and preach that time will mend wounds: Because it does, if you give it enough time. We shouldn't be trying to fix these things for ourselves, we should be trying to fix them for the next generation to reap and enjoy.

That, is the unfortunate side effect of living in a peaceful, large, democratic society. Change is slow.

ShonHarris said When you are restricted to set jobs and roles professionally and individually due to a characteristic of birth that should affect neither, is prejudice.

Yes, though whilst I can't speak for America, there is no job or role a woman cannot hold in Canada. Alberta, the province I live in, has a female premier, and the primary opposition party, the Wild Rose, has a female party leader. This wasn't a thing 10-20 years ago. Give it more time and it will further infiltrate the house of commons.

As I said. Change is slow.

ShonHarris said When this judgement is reinforced with intention in our media and laws in order to place less value on that party and to push more value onto another, that is systematic oppression. You create power from nothing. So I agree with you Brovo that the entity does not exist scientifically, but I add that it does in exist socially.

I can't disagree that it exists socially if you use it as the interim term for all forms of sexism (or at least all forms of sexism against women), in which case: It's an undefeatable monster that will forever live with the human race so long as we are capable of recognizing differences in each other, physical or philosophical. There will always be sexism, racism, and so on, and it's abhorrent, but there isn't much we can do save fight the fights we can and disdain those that exhibit disgusting behaviours.

Laws and education is where the fight should be taken. Geek culture isn't, generally.

ShonHarris said This is a problem accepted as an issue in the federal government

Maybe in America, but not here.

ShonHarris said and I think we could agree on at least that. My point is that while some may be suffering a victim complex, others may well be responding to very real societal pressures. I agree with you that we should identify and combat these instead of merely complaining, but a big part of fixing a problem is first making others aware of the issue.

Agreed! Again, if anyone here wants to ask me about pertinent issues in the gaming industry, I'll be happy to share what I think is problematic and requires repairs.

ShonHarris said Brovo, you already know about the damsel in distress trope. Women are generally seen as weaker, inferior, and needing protection. It's something we use all too often in narrative and often incorrectly assume in reality -- that women are less capable, powerful, or able to be autonomous.

The damsel in distress trope has evolved over time as well. There are multiple incarnations of it.Zelda/Shiek from the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of time subverts this trope. Several Nintendo characters tend to subvert it, actually, come to think of it.

As well, there needs to be a distinction between when the trope is used to objectify a woman as an end game reward, and when the trope is used as a staple of storytelling about how character X wants to save character Y from serious bodily or psychological harm. Anita Sarkeesian used Double Dragon as an example of sexism because it uses the trope: Well, double dragon is a story whose premise had to be told in six seconds. The damsel in distress trope is easily understood, so it fit the six second timer they had because it was originally released in arcades. (Ergo long intros were a no no.) The story is about a boyfriend and best friend who fight through hordes of gangs to rescue someone they care about.

That's not objectifying the woman. That's ironically giving her more value than the men, whose lives are ultimately disposable so long as she's safe in the end.

Remember forever: Tropes are tools! It's how they are used that can hammer home terrible messages or great ones.

ShonHarris said Beyond physical build and all that, which is mostly a non-issue in the modern America, we still keep these assumptions.

It's hard not to. They're part of the foundation upon which modern storytelling is a thing. As you said, the whole equality movement hasn't really been a thing until the last century. Given that our recorded history is at least around six thousand years, we've made impressive progress for one hundred years, and given cool heads, should prevail to further progress over time.

We keep making those assumptions because it's built into the psyche. More time, more stories featuring strong women supported and built up by feminists, and healthy progressive-ism as opposed to assaulting traditionally masculine strongholds should help too. A big part of why the geek culture is seen as resistant towards feminism is because feminism often attacks geek culture: That's how feminism works, it attacks things it sees as problems. Attack any part of geek culture and geeks will see it as just another bullying attempt and put up the defenses.

Different approach needs to be taken.

ShonHarris said The idea of saving women and children first carried over too. It's not a difference in valuing so much as it's an old world holdover that places the man as protector and provider.

Because ultimately, historically speaking, men were more disposable than women. If you have a tribe of 200 people, 100 men and 100 women, if you lose 50 women, you just lost 50% of your breeding potential, 50% of your total next generation, and will be significantly weaker come the next war or otherwise. If you lose 50 men, you just give every man an extra wife and your breeding potential stabilizes back up.

Is it crude and disturbing to look at it that way? Yes. Did primitive tribes need to? Yes. Did it become the foundation of several of our modern hangs concerning how women and men are viewed? Yes, and I'll venture to agree that men got the better end of the bargain, but it wasn't all sunshine and roses.

ShonHarris said You say it's valuing their lives more, but isn't also disarming women and placing them in a position where they're assumed unable?

They were for a while. It was better to convince women to flee and look harmless so that they would be less likely to be slaughtered come the wars. Promoting a culture in which women were to be kept alive as harmless things instead of people was, again, though disturbing, tactically sound back in ancient times.

And yes, I keep bringing up ancient times because we've derived a significant amount of our culture and society on what has come before. Take the Bible for instance.

ShonHarris said Women can theoretically be most anything. However, only very recently were they allowed in US Special Forces. In some cases they're allowed in Combat Zones (makes Infantry hard, doesn't it?), as my ex discovered after enlisting.

That's a shame, but the US military also has (or had?) the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy. They're not exactly paragons of modernism, and I agree they need to change.

ShonHarris said Statistically it is extremely difficult to become successful as a female director in film and most are forced into working in less prestigious roles, or mostly in television.

Now this is something to definitely attack attack attack, but what are the underlying causes?

ShonHarris said Women are still less likely to be hired in leadership roles and in political positions, though thankfully this is slowly changing.

Indeed. Change is slow... But it's preferable to war or open rebellion.

ShonHarris said Women are still, on average, paid much less for the same job with the same level of experience and qualification.

*Points above to pay gap*

ShonHarris said Women can run for a political office or interviewed, but are extremely likely to be asked questions regarding their clothing, children, make-up and have historically been commented on about their looks -- and judged by them when given media representation.

Give it more time. Speak out against those who discriminate. The women running should ask for more valid lines of questioning, and if the traditional interviewers don't work, screw em', we have the Internet, plenty of open minded interviewers for everyone.

ShonHarris said Speaking to cancer now. Men can develop breast cancer, and though it's more common in women, I know from familial experience that is by no means as unlikely as it is for a woman to suffer prostate cancer. That is to say, it is more likely for a man to develop breast cancer than it is for a woman prostate cancer (or so we were told when my great uncle died was diagnosed and died from it). So if breast cancer is more a threat to all humanity, well of course it should receive more funding. Oh, and maybe it's worth noting that there are simply more women (at least in the US), and therefore more citizens apt to suffer the ailment.

Fair enough. I'm sorry about your loss.

ShonHarris said I think it's a very small request for us to just consider this may actually be a problem, to look into ourselves and how we think, and to make sure we're not perpetuating any of these negative stereotypes. That's all. Make sure we're not being a bunch of assholes -- not much of a request. It's not a big thing to consider we may not see the world as completely as we think and that we may well be a part of a problem.

That's fine. I agree on the principle that honest introspective viewing once in a while really helps one to grow as a person.

Well. That was civilized. *Nods* Thank you.

I'm done.

Goodbye.

"You're a Fake Geek!" and Sexism among Geeks/Nerds/Etc (us)

I suppose I can do one of those mega posts I used to do again, all for fun. In this case, I think I'm going to dissect arguments. *Grabs surgical gloves* :p

IRLGoat said
Aahhh, I think... there are many ways to slice this topic. As a girl, I can confidently say sexism is alive and well in the geek community.

Alright. Lets see what sources, argumentation, and illustrations you use.

IRLGoat said The problem is most dudes seem to have the same beliefs. That it isn't really the most vital topic, or that it is "typically not all that big an issue".

Generally though it isn't. Women have the same rights as men across all games so far as I'm aware. (Or at least 99.99% of them.) Sexism is portrayed primarily and purely from individual community members.

There are some systemic issues I'm happy to discuss and grant ground on, like the vast majority of women are portrayed as sexually attractive while men can come in all shapes and sizes (though the majority still tend to fit the grizzled eight pack soldier subtype). There's also the issue of how to write a strong female character without assigning attributes that are traditionally masculine in a writing community that is still trying to figure out how video game writing... Works.

IRLGoat said Being a male in a male-dominant community makes it hard for you to empathize on our part, so I can understand... sorta...

Except no. This is basing the argument on the idea that men cannot empathize with being the minority when the nerd community in general is a minority. Most, if not all people who are active in the community, have been bullied for it. Verbally abused, ostracized, or even physically assaulted. Regardless of gender, nerds are generally capable of understanding what it feels like to be the outcast in the room.

IRLGoat said Claiming that is isn't a big deal because it can happen to guys as well is also kinda... dumb.

Why? How is that dumb? Men can be shot, women can be shot, this does not make guns sexist and the argument invalid.

IRLGoat said Claiming that "anything can happen to anyone, it just happened to happen to a girl" doesn't make sense.

Repeating oneself?

IRLGoat said Because it almost always happens to girls. I highly doubt many guys get "You're faking it!" before "Cool shirt, bro!".

I've been called a faker before and I'm a hardcore enough Trekkie that I've watched every single episode of every single series ever released. It happens to everyone. I will concede that it probably happens to women more often though because a lot of guys in general tend to be absolutely dumbfoundedly stupid around women.

IRLGoat said Nor will they have their interests questioned... in order to prove their legitimacy like they're some sort of super secret spy woman.

Repeat?

IRLGoat said My personal experience in attempting to join a geek community have been generally very poor. We have several card/hobby shops in the city. I have attended events in the past for M:TG games and after participating in one at each card shop, I stopped going. I love Magic. I love playing it. But it was so immensely awkward, I couldn't stand to go. It felt like I was an outsider, interrupting their fun. There are either guys trying to impress me with their knowledge, guys constantly correcting me or treating me like I had never played the fucking game before.

Well I'm sorry for your personal experience, but guys try to impress other guys and constantly correct each other or treat each other like total n00bs. That happens. It's very normal. Again, look to any gaming community with regular balance updates, like League of Legends--you will get tons of it no matter how logical or experienced you are. You could be MLG. You could have won a five million dollar tournament. Other nerds will still question your knowledge and try to one up you.

IRLGoat said So I said screw that. I've been on Gaia Online since 2004, and have had a male avatar for the vast majority of that. People would take you and your writing more seriously if you were even guised as a male.

Never seen this personally. None of my female friends have ever been taken less seriously for their gender concerning writing or role playing save in extreme cases and I've been RPing for over a decade now. Sorry but I'd say you just ran through a serious stroke of bad luck.

IRLGoat said I've been told on LoL that I wasn't a girl. Sometimes it's even the girls themselves.

LoL community isn't exactly the greatest, shining example of humanity out there. In fact I deliberately warn people to stay out of the tribunal unless they want to hate humanity for life.

Though, not to be offensive or insensitive, but I don't see how being disbelieved would be hurtful concerning your gender. Your gender shouldn't matter at all concerning LoL, right? I mean you're there to play as a champion who kills other champions, takes objectives, and wins games. Your IRL identity is entirely irrelevant towards this goal, shameful as it is that others treated you poorly.

I mean I was told to kill myself on that game by some raging twelve year old. It's best not to take things said there seriously or you will go rabid with rage within a few hours.

Though, if you still play, hit me up sometime. I'm always eager to find more people to play with from RPG.

IRLGoat said I tried to join a local anime/cosplay group and was essentially alienated from everyone.

Holy crap seriously? O.o Wow now that -is- bad luck! I sincerely know more female fans who are into cosplaying and anime than male fans, like Kagamine.

IRLGoat said So I left that too.

Hmm...

IRLGoat said My experience has taught me to hide my interests, or at least speak very little about them.

Well I'm sorry about that. I'm glad you're talking about it now though. I'm sure that such experiences haven't soured your view towards gaming as a whole and won't cause you to make extreme generalizations about the entire multi-billion dollar indust--

IRLGoat said Games have objectified and sexualized women to outrageous ends.

Dammit.

IRLGoat said And let's not get started on Suureee, anyone can pick up a controller and play a game.

... Because anyone can? Regardless of their age, gender, race, or otherwise? The only determination I can think of is financial. Poor people won't own as many games, consoles, etc, as rich people will. That's... About it really. Anyone can play as Mario saving Peach, or play Mirror's Edge and jump from rooftop to rooftop, or Civilization V as a tyrannical version of Gandhi or a peace loving version of Catherine. That's the main thing games have going for them, really, is... Anyone can. If they choose to.

IRLGoat said It is the responsibility of other players to make a girl feel comfortable and welcome.

Wut. No. It is not the responsibility of the player to make another player feel comfortable and welcome. This would be like saying that everyone in the movie theater should make sure everyone else in the movie theater is 100% comfortable and welcome. No, that's the job of the staff, that's the job of the people running the game to decide what level of comfort they wish to enforce. The players, audience members, or otherwise, have paid to be entertained. That is all. Anything beyond that is up to them to decide.

Now. That isn't to say that they shouldn't do these things. Frankly a community should always be welcoming of new members if it wants to survive long term. They should, but they're not directly responsible to do so.

IRLGoat said Which is hard cause most nerds don't exactly have the most experience with girls and think being a "nice guy" makes them the cats pajamas.

Aren't you basically asking guys to be nice though? Isn't that the whole point of this, is that guys are sexist because they assume you don't know anything and what not? So wouldn't nice guys basically... Stop doing that? Listen to you when you ask them to stop, and what not?

If you mean fake niceness, well, this extends above and beyond geek culture into masculine culture, chivalry and its consequences, and that is... An entirely different topic.

IRLGoat said Although there are several things you've mentioned that are silly for me to hear from a guy but I'm going to focus on this one.

"Silly to hear from a guy", you know, that's sexist, implying that my gender makes those statements silly... ;)

IRLGoat said This is really... not a great way to look at this subject. You have now turned the blame from the sexist male community and pointed the finger at the girls who "silly enough" to mention they are girls.

I'm finger pointing? I stated that your background is irrelevant unless you bring it up: Regardless of your gender, political affiliations, religious beliefs, ethnicity, sexuality, or otherwise. This doesn't justify bullying, nor does it implicate that the victims should be blamed.

I mean, I, personally, am an atheist for example. I could go ahead and state that in a church, loud and proud, but I shouldn't be surprised if some people take offense to that, or some further still, try to convert me to their religious affiliation of choice. I'm in a church. This is to be expected.

IRLGoat said That's like saying, "You wanna receive not-hate online? Just pretend you're a young, healthy, rich, white male from the US! Simple as that!"

Wut. No. Don't pretend that you're anything. Just stay anonymous. Don't bring your personal life up onto the Internet. That's generally a fantastic no no anyway except amongst people you consider friends. I mean would you walk into the middle of the street and start telling random strangers about your personal life, or personal beliefs? No? So why do that on the Internet, which is full of hateful scumbags who like to troll people?

Background is irrelevant =/= pretending to be anything. It's simply irrelevant, pointless, you don't need to bring it up, you don't need to pretend to be anything. That's the magical wonder of the Internet, and by extension, online gaming.

Here. An example, a personal example: I have depression, and a couple other mental disorders. Some people on this site know about them. Some even make fun of me for it, or dehumanize me for it. I opened myself up to that the moment I announced I had these things. Is it right? No. Of course not. Did I have to share my personal life with random strangers who otherwise don't give a shit about me? No. Of course not. I chose to, and I live with the consequences of that.

If you want to fight the good fight, that's fine, hell I'll support you, more open female gamers would be awesome even though I know shit tons of them because hey why not, but be prepared for the consequences of that decision.

IRLGoat said This fosters a toxic community.

It fosters an anonymous community, like on Roleplayer Guild.

IRLGoat said And sure, we can say, "Well there will always be trolls online! Girls can't complain because males get hated on too!" But it's different hate.

No offense but not really. Hate is hate, regardless of the kind, it's abhorrent behaviour. There is no such thing as a special kind of hatred. This ties back into that statement earlier about how I'm a guy and I must have a hard time empathizing: Erm, well, not really. I fully understand what it's like to be discriminated against. I, too, am a minority in some communities I choose to partake in. We are all minorities. Every single person belongs to at least one minority and will get bullied for it at least once in their lives. I don't know a single person, male or female, rich or poor, kind or cold, soft or hard, weak or strong, black or white, or otherwise, who hasn't been bullied at least once.

Please don't try to feign that the hatred against you for your gender is in some way different or incomprehensible to me. I fully understand hatred.

IRLGoat said This hate makes us feel like our interests aren't justified, that we're not "legit" enough to play with the boys.

... "We"? Again, I know plenty of girl gamers that while they've experienced sexism, don't feel like their interests aren't justified or legit enough. They don't give a rat's fuck what the sexists think about them and frankly that's the best way to combat it. Play the same games, mop the floor with them, bruise their egos. Don't let the boys bully you off the playground game of dodgeball sister, throw the ball in their face and scream HEADSHOT! :p

IRLGoat said I've been pretty fortunate since I surround myself with 90% male friends and they're all A1 people. SO YES. I understand that "not all guys are jerks".

Thank you!

IRLGoat said We can stop reiterating that. It's the guys who are being condescending and disrespectful without even realizing they're doing it.

Inform them if they don't know they're doing it. Knowledge trumps ignorance.

IRLGoat said I think the largest problem in the geek community is the disbelief that sexism is happening.

I think it's pretty universally acknowledged that sexism exists in the community, but it's the degree to which it exists that is in question, and what effect that has on the female part of the community.

IRLGoat said EDIT: OH RIGHT.Alllrriigghhhtt. I don't know about you or anyone you know, but my gender really is a part of my identity. Like . Your identity is comprised of what you are. A trait is a distinguishing quality. I really doubt many girls would say, "I think my best quality is my vagina for making me a girl." I identify as a female Canadian geek. My traits and qualities make up my personality. Just a thought...

It's a single part of the whole is what I was getting at. When you're in a group, the best method by which to inspire equality is to appeal to common interest and gain respect through that. ex: You're a gamer, they're gamers, use gamer reference, metaphor, lingo. Leave your gender at the door of anonymity, as that isn't where you will find common ground.

Cayden Black said Although I can't write a whole synapse on this subject, I can state my opinion.Sexism in any factor is wrong.

Agreed? I don't think that was in question.

Cayden Black said Now I may believe some things men do better and some women do better but I can't name them off the top of my head and besides, thats more down to physical design than anything else.

Biologically: Men tend to have greater upper body strength, women tend to have greater endurance (especially against blood loss, go figure). Men have up to 20 times more testosterone, women have more estrogen, each of these things tends to grant more or less masculine or feminine physical qualities, and so on.

This doesn't usually stop, say, a woman from becoming a firefighter, or a man from being a care giver. One is simply ordinarily better equipped than the other to deal with it. Thankfully for a sexually dimorphic species we tend to be extremely similar across the board in terms of maximum capabilities. Gogo evolution!

Cayden Black said As for geek level, well, I have a very dam geeky sister but she doesn't know anything about the games or sci fi I play and watch but I don't know anything really about her D&D games or Eragorn books (though she still begs me to read them). We are all geeks in our own way it just depends on the field of study you prefer. I like HALO, Gears and fantasy/sci fi. She has similar interests but not in Gears or HALO.In short, we're all geeks, just accept you work in a different department!

Yeah pretty much.

ASTA said
Never knew this shit was this serious.

Concerns one of the big four, it will always be serious.

thinkertron2000 said Feminism is something that's super crazy important to me (I'm likely to loose an old High School friend over it), but I'm going to have to try to keep this brief, because most of the problems with geek culture are either written here, or understood by this community.

Well that's kind of you, thank you. I'm sure now we're going to have a very pleasant debate in which you don't call out individual people and tell them about how terrible they're being just because their opinion is different from yo--

thinkertron2000 said Jorrick, is I'm sure, a nice guy who means well, but dude? We're not asking you to treat women better than men, just that you stop treating them worse then men, or at least to stop using gendered words, like "slut", "whore", "bitch" and so on.

welpfuck.

thinkertron2000 said Using these targets them AS WOMEN, rather than as just someone you don't like, and this is a super important distinction.

Just like how all manner of insults are used against all manner of people whether true or false? People will target you based on your physical or psychological characteristics. It's a weak, pathetic bully tactic, but it won't go away so long as people still have egos to bruise. Women are not singled out in this treatment by any stretch of the imagination, nor is this exclusively in geek culture.

thinkertron2000 said It sends the message that they're not welcome because they are women, and that they shouldn't be playing these games, or reading those comics, or whatever your flavour of geek is.Western culture is already extremely unfair to women, we don't need people taking away safe spaces for women.

Men have 40% longer jail terms for the same crimes. Women nearly always win child custody. In rape cases, men are more likely than women to be charged and convicted, even in cases where there is normally insufficient evidence to constitute a solid case for any other type of crime. In the media, women raping men is not only considered acceptable, it's considered acceptable enough to put in comedies. In cases of physical abuse, the man is usually assumed to be the assailant. If a man hits a woman, it's considered morally reprehensible, but if a woman hits a man, and the man doesn't take it like a man, then the man is pathetic.

I could go on, and on, and on, all day. Things suck for both genders depending on what part of society you are talking about. HOWEVER! Things are better now than they ever have been in the entirety of human history in the first world for women concerning the race for equality. Is society perfect? No. Does it still need work? Of course, it probably always will, but that being said, women achieved significant victories, to the point that calling western society significantly unfair towards women over men is... Well... It's nonsense.

Sorry. :(

thinkertron2000 said "Dick" does not equal to any of those words, largely because men aren't as as maligned as women are, and "bitch" as an insult for men is still sexist against women.

Because men insult men all the time. We're insulted to this sort of thing, it's part of male subculture. We mock each other, poke fun or do it seriously. It's part of our competitive nature.

Also, no, calling a man a bitch is not sexist against women. Bitch has lost all meaning at this point. It's just a vulgarity along the lines of shit and fuck and cunt. You can use them against anyone for anything.

thinkertron2000 said When you call a man a "bitch", what you means is that he's like a woman, submissive and incompetent.hahahahaHAHAHAH!

Erm, are you okay? Manic laughter is not a good sign for mental health.

Also, "bitch" actually originally meant to be compared to a female dog. An animal. Something that drools, is unsophisticated, that smells.

thinkertron2000 said I love guys like this, people who've never actually spoken to a feminist, nor read any feminist articles.

I've read plenty of feminist articles. My ex was a feminist, she and I still talk as friends though we don't get along on some key points that doesn't stop us from being friends.

thinkertron2000 said You're adorable.

Ad hominems do not help your arguments.

thinkertron2000 said Look, one of the biggest tenants of feminism is getting rid of gender rolls, and a patriarchal* society, both of which certainly hurt women, but they hurt men as well.

A patriarchal society is one in which men are dominant over women. If this was true, why would we spend more on breast cancer research than prostate cancer research? Why would women take preference over men where it concerns blindly having to choose in saving lives? (ex: If you have to choose between saving a woman or saving a man, you save the woman. The man is always left to die, he's a disposable cog in the murder machine.) Ever heard the phrase "women and children to the life rafts"?

Women can vote. Women can freely voice their opinions, gain funding, and run for political office. Women can be judges and juries. Women can set laws, and work any jobs they so choose.

Women are equal to men in nearly every capacity. What's left over is tweaks to the system that need to be done over time to keep the system healthy, and move forward towards further equality.

Also I think you meant role*. Although gender rolls sound delicious.

thinkertron2000 said It's because of gender rolls

roles* sorry, I can't help it.

thinkertron2000 said that women get the children in divorces more often (well, that and a higher amount of male abusers than female),

Isn't it convenient to point out that men are more abusive than women... On record... ;)

thinkertron2000 said it's because of a patriarchal society that male victim rape is so often ignored (also the same reason that female victim rape is ignored).

That doesn't even make logical sense. Why would a society run by men for the benefit of men ignore the plights of men. That's like if a king ruled an entire kingdom and did so for the benefit of his enemies?...

thinkertron2000 said Do you want to know why feminists rarely talk about male problems? BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY FEWER OF THEM THAN FEMALE PROBLEMS. It's not that hard you guys.

Or... Bare with me... It's because of a victim complex that makes it convenient to view the world in black and white and give blatant and obvious targets that are otherwise incorporeal and non-existent for the purposes of making life and all its problems simpler. Why can't I get a job? Patriarchy! Why do I feel depressed? Patriarchy! Why can't I get everything I want in life? Patriarchy!!!

The reality of the situation is this: The entire world is a series of greys. Nobody is perfectly good, nobody is perfectly evil. Even Hitler had moral standards for fucks sake: He refused to use mustard gas despite its effectiveness in the trenches of WW I because he found it immoral after it had been used on him when he was a soldier in the German army. No, there isn't an all-powerful world-wide patriarchy that for some reason ignores the plights of men while being ruled by men for the benefit of men. The world is simply a painful place full of unfortunate shit.

Now, we... -Could- keep blaming it on something that, statistically speaking, doesn't exist... Or we could address each issue one by one and repair them over time. Identify definite problems, and fix the ones we can fix. The rest we have to live with and tolerate as simply being part of life. There will always be bigots and sexists and racists and so on. There will always be people who think I should be dead because I'm an atheist or because I have depression and that makes me weak, or because I'm white and that makes me evil, or because I'm male and that makes me an oppressor. I don't let these things bother me. They're empty words from pitiable people.

It's when rights are threatened through laws, through the very protections in society, that we should feel threatened.

I'm not saying to ignore problems. I'm saying to identify shit we can fix, fix it, and simply deal with the rest as the unfortunate consequence of life, instead of blaming an all powerful, all convenient entity that, well, scientifically speaking... Doesn't exist.

Zed said
As an unbiased opinion, I think this whole argument (read: the back and forth between certain people advocating feminism or whatever and the logical thinking people such as Yorick and Brovo, who are advocating for fucking equality all around) is retarded.Like, seriously.Go do something decent with your time, instead of retardedly attacking Brovo and Yorick's opinion (which is actually logical and straight-forward as opinions go) in a never-ending circlejerk of a thread.EDIT: Seriously, anything is better than posting in this circlejerk of a thread.Now then, time to go back to writing up my Tabletop RPG System.EDIT V2.0:I win the thread.

You're not helping.

Legend of Renalta 2 (Dark Fantasy)

Tempest said
sorry, sorry, sorry. Things are a bit hectic on my end... Gonna be pretty much occupied all of tomorrow. Saturday is the day I'm looking at to start working on more RP stuff.

I will be on Steam if you require assistance.

Legend of Renalta 2 (Dark Fantasy)

Delaying the post until Sunday. After that I will be engaging in... "Spring cleaning."

"You're a Fake Geek!" and Sexism among Geeks/Nerds/Etc (us)

HeySeuss said
Hah, I'm pretty sure I can be accused of being naive on this one. I just always felt that 'more geeks, especially geek girls is a good thing' and I'm a little baffled as to why some people resent the 'intrusion,' since I most certainly do not. It's possible I'm the only one taken aback by this.In retrospect, my outlook failed to take human nature into account and perhaps explains why I got taken by surprise with that conversation. But at the same time, I think it's nice for the Guild to have these conversations. Incidentally, that conversation -happened- on the Guild IRC. I'm just not naming names.

It's fine, I don't mind. I figured it came from the IRC. :p

And hey, it's still worth talking about sometimes. It's still worth asking what more can be done, what is presently an issue, how is it an issue, how can it be dissected and repaired, etc. Questions are good. Opinion-loaded questions are the fire starters, which is why I didn't mind answering this thread in great detail.

[Example of what I mean]

Honest Question: What do you think of sexism in gaming? Do you think it is a thing or not?

Loaded Question: Sexy characters are a sexist objectification of women, do you think so? If not, then explain how it isn't!

One question asks for a person to explain their beliefs. The other has already taken a side and is trying to start a fight. :p You went the honest questions route so I didn't mind.

"You're a Fake Geek!" and Sexism among Geeks/Nerds/Etc (us)

Warning: This post contains vulgarities. This is normal of most of my posts involving gaming because that's where I tend to let loose with them, but I've attempted to curb them here to make it at least semi-family friendly.

Oookay, here we go. I'll try to depict this from the men's side of things just as a play on Devil's Advocacy because in all honesty I find this more of a grey issue and typically not all that big an issue, but, hey, here we go, time to dive head first and light the dynamite laid here tonight.

HeySeuss said -Twitter pic-

This isn't a really big deal, honestly. Guys do this to other guys as well. Gamers in general do this to other gamers. It's nostalgia-based bashing. ex: "Oh you love the new X-Com? Well I bet you haven't played the original which is waaayyy better and waaayyy harder." This statement isn't necessarily true, it's just pride-based bashing, dick waving competitions, elitism, the norm between one human being and another in an inherently competitive environment.

HeySeuss said I was witness to a discussion between a friend and another party about roleplaying games and it struck me that geeks can be pretty sexist;

Please let me interject with the following: Everyone can be pretty bigoted, and most everyone at some point in their lives is. Geeks are a culture, they're an identifier of certain behavioural patterns and hobbies. They're not, however, liable to affect a person's own sense of bigotry towards others, as that tends to be affected by other things, like their parents or other authority figures growing up, news outlets and what they choose to digest, etc.

Anyway, just figured I'd note that being a gamer or not is totally irrelevant of whether someone is bigoted or not, and tends to jump the shark into generalizations territory.

HeySeuss said the conversation was between someone who had played D&D a lot longer and someone who hadn't, but the latter party seemed to have trouble taking the former party seriously because they were a girl. It became, almost, a series of cliches like, "Oh! I'm shocked a girl likes that sort of thing" and other comments in that vein that question their authenticity.

There's something wrong with noting that it's unusual for a person of the female gender to partake in a hobby traditionally dominated by the male gender? That's not so much a comment questioning authenticity as it is a comment of pure surprise, and really, not that unsurprising given the circumstances of gaming culture and it's traditionally male-dominated, male-oriented outlook.

Now, this compatriot of yours might have gone on to slate other comments that are intentionally derogatory or otherwise due to her gender, but that specific excerpt isn't one of those things. At least, not to me.

HeySeuss said It was like he couldn't accept that she was playing D&D longer, more often and knew way more about it than he did. It became an e-peen contest where the guy just couldn't accept that her geek e-peen was definitely way bigger.

This is, again, very normal between prideful gamers, male or female is irrelevant. Login to League of Legends sometime and watch the debates about champion balance. It gets pretty insanely over the top about why +10 damage on X is bad or why Y AP ratio isn't high enough to do Z, genders virtually never come up in that.

A prideful person who cannot take someone else knowing more than they do will use any tool at their disposal to try and drag the other person down. Including discriminatory remarks, ranging from homophobic slurs to gender curses. This is prolific across all of society and won't change so long as there are immature people in the world who partake in competitive things, or whom have egos.

HeySeuss said I was a bit flabbergasted by witnessing the entire discussion, and it's sort of been sitting there in the back of my head for a while. So of course, I googled 'fake geek' and and found a huge trove of and some articles in surprising places like . Almost all of it was targeted at women.

This is a bit of a grey issue. It has a lot to do with one side not understanding the point of the other side, but it tends to break down into three things.

#1: Male-dominated culture has long since evaporated save for a few "strongholds" of boys only clubs, like fighting and gaming and race cars and so on. To some, these things are being "infiltrated" and corrupted by women, giving them no outlet to wield their traditionally male-oriented, males-only views. This, in my opinion, is sad, and sexist, and is a perfect example of escapism gone horrible wrong, but it is a thing, and it's worth noting.

#2: Because there are female gamers out there who do actually use their gender as an excuse for fucking everything. Again in League of Legends, a recent example was a top lane that claimed to be a girl gamer in the vein of Team Siren, who fed the enemy four kills in eight minutes (an achievement in that game if there ever was one for performing badly) and it was asked that she play more carefully. She then stated that she was being harassed in all chat and screamed her head off about how she was being discriminated against for being a woman. Even though nobody knew she was a woman on the other team because she had been screaming in team chat the whole time, not all chat.

Basically: Using their gender as a scapegoat, or to whore attention, as opposed to simply going "yes I have a wonderful subset of biological organs that differ from yours, let us kicketh some ass" and leaving it at that.

#3: Because reverse sexism. Specifically in examples of sexy girl gamers, some tend to kneejerk react badly towards that in proclaiming that it objectifies women, even if the women in question are handsomely paid and/or enjoy wearing skimpy costumes to things like Comicon or Animethon. "Booth babes not apply" is a great example from CNN actually. The whole "oh it's evil evil" because sexy women dressing in sexy costumes is inherently evil. Think about that for a minute. There's sexism, and then there's the kneejerk anti-sexism taken too far that decries women from wearing what they might actually want to wear.

tl;dr: You have sexists who don't want girls in a boys-only club, you have girl gamers who do actually use their gender as a defense mechanism for everything and to whore attention, and you have anti-sexists who see attractive women in gamer-paraphernalia as being objectively sexist and thus it shouldn't be a thing.

It's hilarious then that the majority of gamer culture really doesn't care so long as you can play the game. It shows in that most games don't ask for your gender. They just ask for a username, a password, give you a weapon, and tell you to go smash shit in the name of Demacia/Noxus/Irelia/Earth/Aliens/Zombies/etc.

HeySeuss said So I'm coffeed up and finally ready to ask the question: How do you separate the people with legit interests from the people you consider 'fakers' and how do you feel about sexism within communities like this one and similar, that cater to geek interests, and what has your personal experience of some of this been?

Hell of a lot of questions so I'll try to summarize.

#1: Ask any questions about gaming. That usually does it. Not that fakers bother me, more positive attention and open acceptance of gaming is a good thing, traditionalists be damned.

#2: The sexism is usually not that bad. The few cases it happens is usually more in jest and poor taste in humour, or in cases where the person seriously invited it upon themselves. There are, however, some cases where it goes way the hell too far and even I feel uncomfortable. Like how some gamers reacted towards the lead female writer for DA 2/ME 3. Yes, her writing was terrible. No, sending death threats about how you're going to kidnap her children to stop her stupidity from spreading in the gene pool was not anywhere near fucking remotely acceptable as a response. What the hell. Same goes with Anita Sarkeesian: I do not in any way agree with her points, I think it's just the usual stupidity dribbled from the mouth of someone who has no clue how the hell stories work, tropes function, and human beings behave, but I still wouldn't issue her a death threat, and I wouldn't try to get her censored either. She's allowed to be a driveling idiot: I don't have to listen to it if I don't want to, but hey, some people and their idiotic crusades to purge anything they don't like, eh?

#3: My personal experience has gone both ways. Being irritated by women who use their gender to defend poor behaviour or make a game no longer fun by trying to whore attention, and seeing some people be sexist, bigoted assholes... But to be honest? Not much worse than what I see in the real world around me. It just seems the gamer community tends to be more insulated to this sort of shit so when it happens, it explodes, versus in the real world where we're so inundated with this stuff that it turns more into a "oh it must be Tuesday" type of event as opposed to "oh my god not this shit again" type of event.

Frankly, there's more that could be done to curb sexism in gaming, but it's not an imminent threat nor is it causing women any serious harm or danger aside from the mentally deranged who would actually follow through with death threats. It shouldn't be tolerated when it happens, but at the same time, this sort of thing doesn't heal or get better over night. It'll take more time. As it stands though we're better than we've ever been in the fact that we even have a notable female demographic that is actually recognized for once.

HeySeuss said How much of this 'fake geek' ranting is legitimate and how much of it is sexism?

Eh'... 50/50? It does exist, it is a thing, but some of it is just poorly disguised sexism. I tend to view it more as a case by case basis thing rather than broad brush stroking it. Also, as above, there are multiple kinds of it floating around. Some of it hilariously well intentioned, but ultimately destructive (ex: anti-sexism that inherently turns into sexism).

HeySeuss said And, not that I need to say this, feel free to interject anything else you feel about the topic (while staying Fonz cool. ) Oh, and let's try to keep it Fonz cool. If you don't hit that 'post' button immediately upon finishing writing, it really is okay. You can take a minute and go, "Yeah, I could phrase that better." Also, try to stick to attacking the views and not the person.

That's fine. Honestly I think gaming is one of the greatest equalizers we've ever invented. So long as you stay anonymous, your gender, your race, your cultural background or political affiliations don't matter inside, say, Counter Strike. You could be running back to back with someone whom is your complete opposite in every way, shape, and form, and who in real life you would argue with non-stop on everything they believe or everything you believe, but in the game? You both have guns. You both have the same objective. You're both faceless heroes or villains attempting to stop the bomb from being planted, or attempting to slip the bomb past those clever counter terrorists.

It only becomes a problem when we specifically bring these identifiers out into the limelight: Like proclaiming your grand socialism socialist love of socialism, or proclaiming how republican you are and how everyone should be republican, or wielding your gender/race as part of your identity instead of just being a character trait...

There needs to be balance, but, overall?... Anyone can grab a controller, log into a game, and blow away virtual opponents (AI or human) with allies. Anyone can load Skyrim and be the Dovakiin, anyone can load up Counter Strike and try desperately to outwit the other team with their own team, anyone can play League of Legends and try to destroy the enemy's nexus before they can destroy yours... And your own background is totally irrelevant in this unless you bring it up.

-That- is the magic of gaming's great equalizer. -That- is one of the core reasons I love video games and happily identify myself as a gamer, and welcome anyone who wants to join the club.

Sexism will never be purely nullified, but it can still be reduced. Same goes for homophobia, racism, etc, and in my honest opinion as these things dwindle in real life and slowly infiltrate people's minds, it will reflect in gaming as well. Just like it did in the film industry: Still not perfect, but better than it was before. By miles and leagues.

Legend of Renalta 2 (Dark Fantasy)

@Everyone: I will be posting on Thursday. Note that certain missions may be updated before others depending on how quickly others get to posting.

EDIT

As a reminder: Yes, I encourage all of you to go pester those of your mission-mates who haven't posted yet, check in on them, make plans. See what's going on. It helps me as well by extension seeing as how there are a lot of players.

Oh, and Hank has taken a leave of absence due to personal reasons. He'll be marked inactive but his character will still be available during the negotiations to help fight off any threats.