Brovo

Suicide, Tragic or Selfish?

Frizan said
Brovo! But....but...but...BIGOTS!!!!!!!!!

So Boerd said Let me cut through the BS to get to the salient BS, the very specious statement you base this ridiculous text wall on.

Ad hominems. Ahh... Classy.

So Boerd said "Someone dehumanizing you via racism is an act against your person done for the purpose of devaluing you as a human being. It is aggressive, an attack." No, an attack on my person is getting punched.

To attack is to be offensive or violent or so on. One can go and verbally attack people, or attack a building, or attack a theory, or attack a concept. The latter two are obviously not crimes. Still, I'm glad you likely grew up an environment where you weren't choked down with racism, or watched others get attacked for it. It must have been pleasant.

So Boerd said I don't care what stupid people say. Call me chink, I don't care. None of my human rights are violated.

So you're going to totally disregard racially motivated hate crimes, such as those by the KKK and the Nazis? Your argument is heavily flawed in that you are completely ignoring all possible examples except the one you want to see.

Comparing racial slurs to suicide is comparing a hand gun to a meteor striking a planet: The level at which both operate is entirely irrelevant to one another, and making the comparison is in and of itself completely ludicrous on the face of it.

So Boerd said With your nonsense "attack" argument out of the way (And what about all the people who write notes? Isn't that an attack?)

Yes. Yes it is, technically. However, as I said earlier (which you were obviously incapable of reading) I don't consider racism on the same level as, say, murder. It's still a serious problem, but not at the same level.

Because you know. The world isn't black and white... You know that, right?

So Boerd said The rest of the text wall is simply contradictory. Saying the Nbomb is something the bigot does with his own body and as you claim, feelings do not matter when it comes to how an individual uses his own body. Try being ideologically consistent.

Racism is either a belief or an act against a person.
Suicide is the act of ending one's own existence regardless of those around you.

My ideology is consistent. You simply continue to insist on using a faulty argument that predicates itself entirely on comparing two entirely separate issues whose only comparable characteristic is that they both cause pain. Which is, as I said earlier in case you weren't reading, ludicrous on the face of it.

If that kind of comparison is allowed, then committing suicide is just as bad as turning someone down for sex. You hurt their feelings either way, right?

So Boerd said But so what? Accepting the premise that being an "attack" somehow alters the situation, what does it matter? The hypothetical mother is still knowingly inflicting more pain. I do not give a damn what your intentions are, I care about the consequences. There is simply no comparison in the level of damage suicidal mother causes vs dumb bigot.

The hypothetical mother could also inflict pain by doing anything that might offend another human being, which obviously includes eating, breathing, sleeping, belief or non-belief in or of anything, and so on.

One's being upset or offended is no legitimate cause for concern in terms of the moral compass. A person who wants to die is acting upon themselves. A person who commits racially-motivated acts is nearly always acting upon others, not themselves.

Also, pointing out the lunacy of your own comparative argument, and then not seeing how it really is lunacy. The irony.

Dervish said
I really don't want to know how a topic discussing the ethics of suicide turned into arguing about hate crimes.

Because someone seriously thinks calling someone a chink or a nigger is an equivalent comparison to suicide. Just like comparing a cracker to a massive, double chocolate cake in terms of how much calories they'll add to your diet.

I do have to say, it's pretty silly.

So Boerd said
That does not explain the inconsistency in your philosopy. Here, use my take on the examples as an example of ideological consistency.Suicidal mother: Is bad because the mother is causing enormous life shattering pain.Bigot: Is bad as the bigot inflicts pain to make himself feel better.Relationship: Unlike the family, all parties are entered by choice and as such may leave by choice. You cannot simply decide one day you are not my biological parent. The incredibly strong bond between parent and child is so much stronger. I can get another girlfriend, but I only get one mother.

You can also get another girlfriend if the one you currently have commits suicide, if we're talking from cold logic here.

As for the "so strong" bond between parent and child, how about those adopted children? How about people who have mentors, which is intrinsically a parent-child relationship? How about people who have very little ties to their own biological parents? (ex: I can say from personal experience that if my mother died tomorrow I'd probably spit on the grave.)

I've already plainly stated how racism is an act against someone while suicide is an act against the self, and you've made no effort to counter it... Instead choosing to appeal to pathos entirely and nearly exclusively. Tsk.

ActRaiserTheReturned said I've got to say Brovo, that I disagree whole heartedly with you opinion that suicide should be allowed.

And that's alright. I have no intention of trying to "convert" people to the "suicide is okay" camp.

ActRaiserTheReturned said Speaking as a formerly suicidal person, it's not a good thing to be in that position, for sure.

I'll need context before I could comment on this, but to quickly addendum in: I do ask for a sound mind. Someone with a mental disorder or otherwise is not of sound mind.

ActRaiserTheReturned said However, what's even worse is if you commit the deed that's on your mind. Now I don't believe suicide will end you up in Hell like Christianity teaches, I believe it's a sin you can't atone for though.

You can't say sorry to the people you hurt when you kill yourself, so yes, it is something you cannot atone for, I'll grant that.

ActRaiserTheReturned said I can say that After being given to five strangers for gang bang "fun" at the age of seven, being seduced and used in broad daylight by a teenage boy at around the same age, then being forced to watch as the teenager who seduced my much younger mind is literally chopped to death in front of me with an axe, that I would not, even as I live now in my current state of uncertainty, look into the future and see that I wasn't there.

...Holy shit did that actually happen to you or is that an example? O.o Either way, I'd say that's trauma related, and wouldn't fall under the sound mind cause I have in mind.

When I think "sound mind" I think of a person dying in a hospital who wants to pull the plug and die when they're ready to die, or a person who is extremely old and frail and can no longer live without assistance asking for euthanasia, or rare cases where a perfectly functional person decides they simply don't want to live anymore, not due to some kind of trauma or mental disorder, but simply because they don't want to exist.

In your case, yeah, I would have stepped in myself to stop a suicide. It would have been tragic.

ActRaiserTheReturned said I"ve had moments of depression.

So have I. I think everyone has. I also wouldn't consider those of sound mind, though, depression and all that.

[quote=ActRaiserTheReturned]If you linger on the board long enough, I have some bizarre posts of mine where I'm not feeling too good, and I say weird, Emo Gothic bullshit things.[/quotes]

Never seen them myself, no.

ActRaiserTheReturned said I've had moments in my life where I just wished I wasn't alive anymore. Suicide isn't necessarily selfishness even though selfishness is probably involved, (Although a lot of the component of suicide has GOT to be some kind of psychological or brain related problem).

And now you see why I add the sound mind clause. Suicide because one's mind isn't healthy is tragic. I wouldn't go so far as to say selfish, but definitely tragic, and should be helped like someone suffering PTSD or manic depression, before they would commit to a decision that, in an otherwise sane mind, they would not.

ActRaiserTheReturned said I can safely say at this point that it's best if people let their Maker decide their fate. We have a purpose for being in the world, and it's just not worth it to fight our own purpose, for the sake of the alleviation of suffering. I have no condemning attitude towards people who have been through or are going through this however. The joy that cometh in the morning just isn't perceivable by us mere mortals.

Hm. I suppose that's where we are ideologically different. I don't believe there is any kind of deity, maker, or otherwise supernatural force. I also don't believe we have any kind of constructed purpose, and hold to the belief that the point to life is to find the point. (ex: If you don't know what you want to do, go find something to do, that is your new point to life.)

I will agree on one point though. I have no idea what happens after death. Could be wonderful. Could be horrible. Could be nothing at all. My mortality makes it impossible for me to ever know that for certain.

Also, I'm sorry all that shit happened to you, and I'm glad you managed to pull through. Even if we are often ideologically opposing.

Suicide, Tragic or Selfish?

So Boerd said How does an old coot yelling naughty words at you violate your sanctity as a human being, but losing your mother does not?Do you have some right to not be insulted but no right to a mother? Let's get our priorities straight. Pick any 100 people off the street and ask them which they prefer.Aren't you being selfish for telling the bigot he cannot walk around yelling his foulness? It is his mouth, why can't he say anything he wants that causes no physical harm?

Racism =/= Naughty words. Using words like "fuck" or "shit" is non-derogatory in nature; it's an exclamation of pain or surprise.

Racism is done with the intent to dehumanize and disassociate, to treat someone else as a lesser individual, or indeed, as simply being a tool, for an element that is entirely uncontrollable and irrelevant to who they are as a person: Their ethnicity.

Someone dehumanizing you via racism is an act against your person done for the purpose of devaluing you as a human being. It is aggressive, an attack.

Losing one's mother to suicide is not an act against your person. Your feelings are irrelevant ultimately in that it is her body, and thus, her decision. It is not aggressive, it is not an attack.

Get your priorities straight: You cannot tell someone what it is they should or shouldn't do with their own body. In an idealistic world, there would be no suicide, and no racism, but this isn't an idealistic world, and blaming the person committing suicide for how you feel about it is beyond disrespectful.

Pick any one hundred people off the street and ask them which they prefer on topics like homosexuality back in the 50's and you'd get a pretty much universal answer on that: It's wrong. Argument ad popularim is not a valid method by which to construct a logical argument, it is only valid for gathering consensus, which is often flawed.

As I said before: If a person wishes to believe that [insert ethnicity here] is inferior to [insert ethnicity here] for [whatever stupidity here], that's their decision. That's not illegal, and even if it was, how the fuck does one prosecute thought crime? It's when someone acts on that and goes on the offensive, to attack, to dehumanize, to commit racially-motivated crimes, that's when it's wrong, because it's an act against another person. I wouldn't call it as bad as, say, murder, but racism itself is a serious problem.

Suicide is a decision. If you don't want to live--and I mean really don't want to live--you will find a way. Just like a person who does hardcore drugs finds them no matter how hard the drug war tries to stop it, and a person who craves violence will find it wherever he goes. Shaming a person who wishes to kill themselves is the reaction of someone who cannot understand the emotional state and history of other people.

Basically speaking: If someone wants to kill themselves, that's a decision about their own person, for themselves, and their own future. If others are hurt by that decision, that's unfortunate, but in the same vein as being hurt by someone drinking alcohol and doing drugs.

I also advocated for seeing a therapist before offing oneself. Because if the wish to kill oneself is coming from a disorder like depression, then that's a tragedy in the making, not a conscious decision made with sound mind.

Seriously. Victim blaming though. Man, c'mon. A person who is killing themselves is already about to go through a literally life ending decision. Being emotionally mature enough to still care about who they were when they pass on, and respect their decision, and making absolutely sure it's what they want to do before going through with it--that's what true family does, what a real friend would do. Caring enough about someone to accept them even when they end up making a decision that hurts you so they no longer have to deal with whatever it is that's killing them every day is a sign of emotional maturity.

You will live on. It'll hurt, but if they make that decision of their own sound mind, well... Stopping them is torturing them. It's telling them that your own emotional state is more important than theirs is, and sets the value of their individual rights and feelings and beliefs beneath that of yours.

Selfish. Tsk.

Still. Tired. Me thinks I will sleep and we'll see if this goes anywhere when I wake again.

Legend of Renalta 2 (Dark Fantasy)

Kangaroo said
Sorry my post is a little short and crappy, all my typing has been burned out by writing literature reviews and engineering reports :(

It's okay.

I'll be attacking this RP in greater detail tomorrow. TLB and my work place overloading me has done enough damage to my creativity for the day. First up, removing the inactives from play. I'm thinking that I'll make them into party-controlled NPC's. That is, if you have an inactive in your group, I will let you control them both for interplay and so you can continue to use their abilities and skill sets as effectively as you think is necessary. If you don't use them, I will instead.

If you haven't posted by Monday, I will more than likely start to leave you behind as I roll out the next wave of IC posts.

Also, for those of you in TLB as well, yes, the tweaks to the missions system in TLB will be ported to LoR 2 come the second wave of missions.

Thanks for the input everyone, and your loyalty. It means a lot to have this much patience from so many people.

The Last Bastion: Bunker Chicago

James Wolff, approved, though add whether you're taking the C4 or RPG in your inventory somewhere. You can switch it out later, I just need to know that before you start any missions.

Roman Cassidy, remove one of your bonuses on your custom history type and it should work out fine.

...Though admittedly, a silenced shotgun won't be too effective on the "silence" part until it receives further upgrades down the road. Don't expect to be able to fire that thing in a building and not get the attention of everyone in the same room, or even in adjacent rooms. It will probably prevent reverberation from alerting the entire block, so, it's not entirely useless, just giving you a heads up.

@Everyone: Two quick updates while I'm here.

First, missions. Missions will be using a new system with a familiar structure. Instead of several disparate missions, there will be one "main" mission set up in a chapter-like structure, dividing players and NPC's alike into squads of anywhere between 3-6 players. This way, if one squad is decimated by deaths of player leaves, they can reunite with another squad, and the actions of one squad can directly impact another. (ex: If Squad A is trying to slip past, say, a U-ARM convoy, and Squad B uses an RPG on some mystery creature, the convoy might hear that and divert course to investigate.) You can also use this to coordinate flanking maneuvers.

Mission Teaser
"Alright, listen up. We all know the shadow zone is a threat. Under my explicit orders, only scouting squads were to be allowed to enter. The council of ADAM granted our local representative, however, to counterman that order, against all sound logic and reason, and decided to send an entire mechanized convoy in. We sent in forty mechs, sixty tanks, and twenty jeeps, with enough firepower to level half of the old city. They were supposed to report back every two hours. They have failed to reply back in four hours. We're sending you to investigate.

You may enter the shadow zone fog if you have no other choice, but remember, that you'll only be equipped with gas masks. You will die within the hour in there, mutant or not, according to council intelligence, and if you lose your masks, you will instead die within seconds.

If you find any survivors, bring them back alive. We need them more than anything else. Failing that, bring back any of the mech logs. Any one with a sensor package should have one located in the black box compartment.

I will not be able to accompany you on this mission due to the need to interrogate a U-ARM agent we captured, they were planning on attempting a second nuclear attack on Chicago, and we need to put a stop to that. Instead, Captain Derek will be accompanying you in his attack chopper, Achilles Heel. Try to bring him back alive as well. He may be a show off, but he is the son of a council member, so his loss would be a hard blow to my credibility, and by extension, yours.

Dismissed. God be with you all, if he should listen to such petty things as human prayers." -Colonel Marie Black, BCSec.

Second, a teaser on my own character, who will be a woman. Maybe a listener, maybe a grunt, still juggling which I should do. Inspiration for her, (source). Either way, likely building a team player.

Vaccines?

Agreed with Dervish all the way. I have nothing more to add except that he stated everything I could or would state on the topic anyway: Vaccinate your damn kids!

Suicide, Tragic or Selfish?

So Boerd said
So I ask you the same question. Do you hold racist bigots in the same regard?

As suicide? No.

Racism is an action against a fellow human being, or a belief held about a particular group of people, based solely on their ethnicity.

Racism is more akin to murder: It's an act which violates the sanctity of another human being, with the intent of violating the individual rights of that other human being. Suicide is an act with the motive to end one's own life, not the life of another.

Still. Racism is an entirely different topic with layers of complexity involved. For instance, holding a racist belief, while perhaps immoral, isn't necessarily worthy of being called an illegality because it's a belief, not an act. Racially-motivated crimes or discrimination, on the other hand, is an act, and should be dealt with accordingly based on the situation at hand.

...Versus suicide, where barring mental instability, if a perfectly sane person wishes to end their own life, the only person they act upon directly is themselves, right in the same vein as choosing to drink alcohol, do drugs, smoke cigarettes, drive a motor vehicle at highway speeds, jump out of a plane, or owning a pet that could kill you in seconds if it went berserk.

Net Neutrality is Dead..

ActRaiserTheReturned said
Well I guess that we oughta not mention politics on Role Player Boards anymore then. Yikes.

Well... At the very least discretion will be the better part of valour. Perhaps mention to Mahz a few server hosts in Switzerland...

Suicide, Tragic or Selfish?

So Boerd said
Both cases involve knowingly causing pain. Whether pain is the intention does not matter. Both cases, the person knows what kind of pain they will cause and they still do it. The suicidal person just inflicts infinetely more pain.

Your pain is not my concern if I want to die, get a divorce, or say no more. Do you think wars are won, or legal battles satiated, by appealing to pathos? No. Not at all. Your being offended or upset is in no way, shape, or form, a credible claim to censoring or invalidating my right to control my own body and person as I see fit. If a person is allowed to inhale chemicals that will slowly give them cancer and destroy their lungs, or drink a substance that is literally poison for the sole purpose of becoming intoxicated, or allowed to voluntarily perform extremely dangerous stunts like...
--Driving a motor vehicle beyond twenty kilometres per hour.
--Diving out of a plane.
--Being on a plane.
--Being on a boat.
--Swimming in the ocean knowing there are sharks around.
--Keeping pets that can kill you, which of course includes astro the dog and phoenix the cat. (Points to whoever can get those references.)
--Owning a gun, firing a gun, or anything related to firearms or explosives in general, including but not limited to: Construction, the military, police forces, recreational use, and so on.

...Then maybe, just maybe, a person should be allowed to choose when they no longer wish to live after being checked over by a therapist for signs of a mental disorder. We have seven billion people on this planet. Speaking from a coldly logical point of view, there is no point or purpose served in preventing someone who wants to die from simply doing it. Because those who really do actually want to die, will simply die. They will find a gun, or hang themselves, or stab themselves, or overdose on medication, or hundreds of other methods of ending ones own existence which vary in levels of pain.

Otherwise, if you don't want someone to die, and believe it to be so selfish an act as to say they shouldn't be allowed to do that, then you should cease any and all activities that increase the chances of your own demise, especially if said activities (ex: drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, working with cleaning chemicals, etc) directly can and will increase your own cause for death by slow suicide.

Your love for them is as selfish as their wish to die. That's the cold, hard truth.

Net Neutrality is Dead..

Well. Shit. Considering how much stuff is run on American Internet... Shit. Shit. God dammit.

Strangest Roleplays

A 1x1 involving a talking bottle of tequila trying to convince an owl to stop drinking it. In the end, the owl is eaten by a flying sperm whale.

There was a lot of metaphors in that RP.

There was also a lot of drinking.