Halo

RPing characters with mental illnesses

Brovo said
-snip-

You... actually can't help yourself, can you? Christ, again, "refute" - this isn't a debate with the objective of somehow 'winning'. If you disagree, you disagree. I asked you to take into consideration my thoughts and opinions; I'm not going to try to force you to accept my view, because I'm far more interested in genuine discussion than simply being right and "refuting" any points you've made to prove how correct I am. Unlike yourself. It's not about proving how right your opinion is, man, it should be about listening to and considering alternate points of view. You approach this like I approach competition debates, not genuine discussions with my friends, peers, family, whoever.
But at this point, 90% of what's being said is arguing about the nature of arguing, or how well I'm arguing, rather than actually paying attention to the relevant points being made. It's an exercise in futility. Please, take away what I've said and think about it on a personal level, rather than as if it's a debate to be won. You don't have to change your mind, but still - consider the fact that I've actually been in the position I'm describing, afraid to speak out about my own genuine problems because of people like you screaming "FAKE AND GAY", so it is something people experience and it is worth thinking about, at the very least, even if you weigh up the different facets of the situation and decide that calling people out causes less harm than not doing so.

Veritas

Adorabadass said
Nope. Too late. You + Fire. Shipping it oh wait it's canon. >:DAnd sweet that's three people dropping off character sheets now.

Fire is my OTP, it's true. I ache with the desire to serenade the Springfield Tyre Fire long into the night.

People from the IntChk will hopefully filter in over the next day or two, too. ^^

icmasticc said
I meant to say this earlier, but I forgot because I was at work. I thought X-Men DOFP was good, but not as good as the praise it's getting. It was a lot slower than I thought it'd be and Spider-Man was more generally enjoyable. Don't burn me at the stake though, it was still excellent XDD.

Slower in what way? I thought it was fairly high-octane-action-packed, myself. I thought Spiderman was a little... contrived. The villains weren't very well-developed, though I did enjoy it immensely. The ending freaking killed me, too (not going to give away spoilers for the heretics who haven't seen it yet! xD)

The Skytower Rebellion

Indeed. Thank you for compensating for my mistake, Siphran. :)

RPing characters with mental illnesses

Now, I refuse to do the same as you've done back to you, quoting sentence by sentence, because the point never gets reached that way - you just spiral off, arguing about every tiny facet of the others' argument, right down to individual word choice. It strips everything of context and defeats the point of discussion.

As I understand it, your view is thus: "I could be wrong but Wayne's account of his experiences seemed unbelievable to me, therefore he must be lying. I thought it best to call him on it because people faking illnesses is detrimental."
My view is thus: "You have no bloody idea if his experiences are real or not, because you aren't an expert and are limited by your own personal experience. I think it's best not to call people on it because the more vitriolic you are towards people you've decided must be 'fakes', the less comfortable people with real issues feel expressing them, out of fear of receiving the same treatment."

I never accused you of being deliberately spiteful or cruel. I know that wouldn't be your intention. I also don't think that, honestly, you were seeking to help Wayne when you started this conversation. You were trying to call him out as a fake - which I understand, considering I know precisely how damaging those faking it can be (as I said, I've been there; you aren't the only one who knows anything), but on which my philosophy differs massively from yours. The core point of my argument was to highlight my view on this "calling out", and to get you to consider that maybe it could be detrimental. The way in which that point was presented was less than adequate, I'll admit, but I was hoping the core argument/the bigger picture would be taken into account rather than narrowing it down to word choice.

There is a difference between being privately sceptical, and deliberately trying to call someone out, in public, to prove them as a "fake". The former I fully support. The latter, less so, for the reasons outlined above. All I ask is that you consider that opinion - without quoting every tiny word I say and trying to pick apart my argument as if defending yourself from a vicious personal attack, or, even worse, somehow "win" the debate. This isn't Off-Topic, a debate on a purely intellectual level regarding pros and cons of X political system or Y approach to Z. This is much more personal, and is merely a discussion.

As for the whole "insult" thing, forgive me - it wasn't meant as a personal attack or vitriolic insult, really. It was akin to calling your mate an asshat or whatever.

EDIT: I think, in essence, I felt the need to comment precisely because I know how important this is to you, and that the idea of somehow being detrimental to the struggles of people with mental illness would absolutely kill you. I felt the way you were acting was potentially damaging when you didn't intend it to be, and felt that should be highlighted as something you should consider in future.

Has the "Casual" bar been lowered?

I don't think the average/mean level has changed much, but I do think that the overall range of quality encapsulated in "Casual" has increased a little bit. It's the area most people naturally gravitate towards, as has already been noted. And with a new site, and a lot of new members, there's been a huge influx into Casual - where everyone starts testing the waters - while the activity of Free and Advanced suffers. Over time, I think stronger Free/Advanced communities will establish themselves as people figure their level relative to others out and gravitate towards others of similar dedication/ability/whatever, and the boundaries will become clearer again as (comparative) activity picks up in Free/Advanced (not that they were ever that defined and clear in the first place.)

Of course, I'm not the best person to gauge the situation, as I've almost exclusively RP'd in "High-Casual" RPs at the top end of Casual (read: too scared/not enough time to go into Advanced). So I don't have the broadest view of such things.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't realise this was 3 weeks old.

RPing characters with mental illnesses

Brovo, don't be a colossal dickweed. Okay, we know, you've had a hard time as a result of your own experiences with mental illness, and people faking it or trivialising it only make things a million times harder. You know that I know that because I wrote a whole freaking article on public misconceptions of mental illness and used you as a source, remember? Trust me, I get it. I've been there myself, actually.

But what you have to remember is that it doesn't make you an expert on every mental disorder ever. You don't have a freaking clue who Wayne is, what doctors he's seen, what hospitals he's been to, or anything else. Maybe it doesn't seem believable within the realms of your own experiences, but honestly, just as equally someone who's never experienced a disorder could call bullshit on stuff you've said about your experiences. You aren't in a position to pass judgement on everyone else who has any sort of connection to mental illness just because you have experience with it too. You are limited and locked within your own personal experiences just like anyone else.

Maybe you're right about Wayne's diagnoses not matching up with the way it should be diagnosed, I wouldn't know - but holy shit, you must be lucky as hell in your experience with mental health professionals and doctors if you think they always have actual competency and know the 'rules'. I'd bust out some statistics about how many wrong diagnoses are made annually or whatever, but honestly, I don't think I need to - it's a well-known issue that mental health treatment, even in the plushy Western countries most of us live in here on RPG, is still often pretty appalling. And with the clusterfuck of different diagnoses and conflicting opinions I've seen some people get caught up in, it wouldn't surprise me if some people didn't know what the hell was on the official record anymore.

But y'know what - let's just assume you're right. So what?

Calling people out on it, whether they are actually lying or not, helps nothing. It accomplishes nothing. You have no way of disproving what they've said, and it comes down to a bitchfight between the two of you, your word against theirs. It proves nothing. In fact, all it does is make people with genuine issues afraid to discuss them, in case they're actually persecuted by their own kind who don't believe them. You see a similar phenomenon in "nerdism", so to speak. Geek culture is so fucking brutal to people who they consider "posers" or not "real" geeks that it massively deters people from openly and genuinely enjoying "geeky" things and showing an interest. Another example: a girl I knew posted something up on Facebook condemning others for self-harming just for attention, which detracted from the seriousness of people who "genuinely" had a problem - completely fucking oblivious to the fact that half the reason harmers are so afraid to be open about it is because of the fear of being labelled "fakers" or "attention seekers", and that her doing that was only making life more difficult for people with those issues. You're doing the exact same thing here. Regardless of whether you're right about Wayne or not, busting everybody who's story doesn't pass your freaking arbitrary mental authentication checklist just means people feel fucking petrified of ever coming out and speaking about their issues in case they don't pass your little test, and end up being rejected and abused by those who should have been likeminded and supportive.

This is a personal issue for you. I know that. But you're an intelligent guy; don't let it cloud your judgement. Think about what you're saying and what it means in the wider context, just as you're angry at those who fake illnesses for attention for the wider repercussions they cause.

Anyway, despite my rant, I know you guys resolved your differences and whatever and don't think further argument is conducive to the discussion at hand, which is about RPing. I just felt it was important to note.

ITT: Talk to unspecified people that aren't here.

Dervish said
Even if a relationship's already destroyed, and there's no chance of salvation, apologies are never meaningless, even if the other person isn't receptive. Sometimes, you have to be brave enough to face the consequences, admit you're wrong, and move on. Either that person accepts the apology or does not, either way, what's said is said and sometimes things improve, other times they don't. It's better to know to move on, y'know?

I didn't say it was meaningless; just that it isn't always the best option. Sometimes, the "sorry" will hurt you both a lot more; either because of certain complex emotions, or simply because it brings the painful past back up again. I suppose I've come to subscribe myself to an overarching principle of happiness - the best path to take is the one that brings you both peace/happiness/whatever. That supercedes the principle of honesty, or of facing the consequences, or whatever. Sometimes it's better to let things lie, rather than pulling up painful past issues to apologise. There are events in my past that I was terribly hurt by, and I really don't want the person who hurt me coming to me and saying sorry, explaining why they're sorry, or just generally reaggravating old wounds. And though I can't speak for those people, I imagine it's the same vice-versa. It's in the past now; we're beyond it.

EDIT: In essence, I'm saying that apologies aren't always the only, or even the best, way for you and others involved to move past something.

Branching out...

It's not much different to a 1x1, really. The main difference is the existence of a GM.
As a player, all you do is make your Character Sheet (a description of your character, the base-version of which should be in the OOC), wait to see if your character is accepted, and then participate and post in the IC. There are rules around this (e.g. no making yourself super powerful, restrictions/requirements on posting frequency, sometimes there are posting orders, i.e. the order the players post in is dictated), but they should be explained in the OOC. I'd recommend starting with this, and gathering an idea of the GM's role through playing - that's what I did!
The GM is the one who creates the roleplay, decides which characters are accepted in, etc. They're also the ones who direct the roleplay's narrative through their posts a lot of the time. They have ultimate control, particularly over major events that drive the roleplay. They're very much like a Dungeon Master in Dungeons and Dragons, if you've ever played that,

ITT: Talk to unspecified people that aren't here.

Awson said
Breathe in, breathe out.Good.

I can feel the Zen moving through me.

Dervish said
Genuine question for those of you saying sorry to somebody; what's keeping you from actually saying it to the person? It's better to say and to know then to keep it to yourself with words left unsaid.

Not always. Sometimes things are too broken for a sorry to make any difference, and you've reached the point at which you both just need to move on and forget. Or perhaps the need to say sorry only comes in retrospect, long after the incidents at hand. There are a lot of reasons why actually saying sorry isn't always the best path.

ITT: Talk to unspecified people that aren't here.

Right. It's 4.07am. Fuck it, let's do this.

1. Of course it hurt me, what you did. I'm just thankful that I'm a good enough liar to hide that from you, to pass it off as okay, because I'd rather have you as a friend than as nothing at all - and the way you were speaking the next day, saying you'd understand if I never wanted to see you again... that scares me. I don't want you sabotaging our friendship to appease your own guilt. I need a friend, not for you to run - so stay my friend. We'll be okay, I promise. Thank goodness I can lie well enough to pass it off as okay, as if I don't care, because if you saw what you did you'd run a mile out of shame. And I don't want that. Stay my best friend, please, because I need you. I want you to be more, but I need you to be my friend, right now, especially with the sort of place we're both in emotionally. I hope we can do that; make this work as a friendship, because you're one amazing human being.

2. More than anything, I'm glad I got over myself/my principles and found my empathy. I still have issues with the selfish decisions you made with him, hurting others, but I also understand them better now. And I'm not going to hate him for you anymore; we might be incredibly close friends, but I'm not your brother or father, I can't be angry at him for you. If you forgive him for hurting you, I will too, and I'll try to understand the decisions you guys made. Hell, I've made similar mistakes, and we're young, and I cannot stand the thought of losing you as a friend over something like this.

3. You colossal asshat. I don't think you even realise what you've done. I trusted you, told you things in confidence; I told you I liked her; and you went off and kissed her anyway. Last time we spoke properly, we were drunk, and you hugged me and told me we were like brothers, that you were so glad we finally grew up enough to talk and be real friends. And then you stabbed me in the back. And the worst thing? You probably didn't even do it with malice or selfishness. You probably didn't even think of me, or how it could hurt me, and you probably still haven't. Thoughtless. And I tricked myself into thinking you'd grown up.

4 and 5. I know you care, but I wish it wasn't so passively. I wish you'd do something to maintain our friendship, not just stand on the sidelines and worry about me. It gets to the point where I feel like you care, you worry, you want me to be okay, but only as long as you don't have to do anything, as long as it doesn't inconvenience you.

6. I don't know whether to be sorry or whether to be pissed off at you or whether we should both reconcile and move on. I think all three. You were everything to me, and neither of us wanted it to end the way it did. It sucked, it hurt, it was awful to be young and trapped by circumstance, unable to do fuck all to separate ourselves from the difficulties of unfortunate circumstance. But you, you moved on so quick, and I know why - you've told me, said to me, that it's just a defense mechanism, to bury your head in the sand and not feel. It cuts me deep, though, to see how little you seem to care - even though I know you lie awake at night, feeling, you do it alone, hide it away, and don't you remember, dear, I can't look into your eyes and see it for myself. I can only know what you tell me. And right now, all you'll show me are the parts that are killing us both, and killing everything we shared.

7. I'm including you here because I feel I should, even though I've run out of things to say. One day, you will learn. You will stop repeating the same selfish, stupid actions and mistakes. It just won't be by my hand or from my lips that you learn, because I'm done trying to help you. I'm done.

8. You're so fucking infuriating. I've tried to care, to be there for you when I knew nobody else was. I've walked you home at 4 in the morning just to get the opportunity for us to speak about all that I can see is bothering you. You keep promising me you'll try to change. But you never do. And I don't know, after all the shit I've been through - you never consider that, do you? - whether I can continue to care for you, when you will happily drag me down with you. Once upon a time, I'd do it happily. Now, I don't know. I simply pray you get a fucking grip, so I don't have to break my promise to always be there for you.

9. We could have been much better friends. You think nobody notices the way you detach yourself, or the secrets that lurk in your eyes, the pain or upset you can feel. You think you hide it - but we see it, we all give a shit about you, if you'd only give us a chance. You are not the only one with the clarity you do, admittedly, possess. I understand, more than you would know. But now it is too late, and we will never have a chance to be that close, and it kills me.

10. I am so unbelievably proud of you. You've worked so hard and achieved so much, and you've grown so much since we originally stopped speaking. I couldn't be happier that we finally started again this year, and if we end up at different universities next year, I know how far you'll go. You've the smarts and the charm and the looks - nothing's going to stand in your way now.

11. You've been one of the most consistently amazing friends to me since I was lucky enough to meet you, and I'm so grateful. I hate that I won't see you much this summer, but I know we'll stay in contact. I just hope you stop beating yourself up and expecting perfection from yourself one day. You're already an awesome friend and one of the sweetest guys I know. When I was friendless, you pulled me outta a gutter I felt I was trapped in. Thank you.

12. I don't know whether you're a bitch or just so painfully insecure that I can only pity you, not despise you. I threw a hell of a lot into being there for you, and because nobody else will, I still do. I still wipe away your tears every time you get drunk and cry. And you used to be there for me too - the only problem was, you were in a relationship with a guy you were using as a safety blanket, and you were too willing to try to blur the lines with me for my comfort. And you've not changed since then. I don't know whether I lost a great, though insecure and misguided, friend, or saved myself from your vile manipulations. To be honest, I'm glad I don't know. I want to leave that behind. I just hope to God you forge something new for yourself, so you don't end up all alone, because even I don't want that for you.

13. You've... changed so much. It worries me. You were my closest friend before you left, very close, and you come back in a few months. To be honest, maybe I wanted to be more than friends, just a little, and I think you knew that - but as I told you, how could I let myself go with you when I knew you'd be leaving me so soon? Either way, I should be excited. Instead, I'm concerned. You've acted and talked in ways I never would have expected from you, recently. I missed you so bad, and you finally managed to admit you missed me too - but are you still you? I don't know.

14. You intrigue me and always have. I want to get to know you, but don't know how. We talk and it's nice, it works, but somehow something always comes up. It never quite clicked into place, even when you told me some of your insecurities. And I was tipsy, too tipsy to be able to give good advice... maybe that was when I screwed up the chance to get to know you and be friends. I wish you the best no matter where you end up.

15. Awh, honey, your mascara stained my shoulder. We've been through some real ups-and-downs, from being best friends to you almost literally nearly effing killing me, to cutting me off, to somehow being best friends with my brother and eventually reconciling with me, now we'd both grown up so much in a few short years. We never talk, but I feel very close to you - it's odd. Maybe it's just the peaks and troughs of the story we've had. Somehow we'll keep in contact, you lovely girl - no, woman, now. Thank you.

16. I stop talking to you and you try to fucking kill yourself? I could slap you silly, jesus motherfucking christ. I know; I know I was the only one holding you above the waves, the only one you could talk to, because you only knew me by reputation through someone who loved me, and you knew I had such a big fucking brain and a big fucking heart and I seemed to know everything. You told me that yourself. I'm very good at making it look like I know everything to people like you, when I need to. And I barely knew you, but like I've done with countless others, I tried to take you under my wing. I sat there while you were drunk and had a loaded gun to your temple, and I talked you out of it. Every day. And one day, I had to leave, you know why - and three days later I hear you've popped pills. Fuck you, man, and at the same time I bloody hope you're okay now - I don't even know. I just know you're alive. And I guess..... I guess that's all that matters. You're alive even though I left, even though it was after that night with the gun that I nearly cried in front of one of my closest friends simply because she asked me how I was holding up. You were the wake-up call, to me, the last one. That I couldn't keep giving without taking, keep being used by people like you - not malicious, just desperate. You're the ones that are hard to say no to, hard to leave, hard to cut off from, because I know you just need someone. But I can't keep doing this to my own detriment, I need a balance, and I need friends like many of those I've anonymously spoken out to above, those who reciprocate. I'm sorry. Please be okay without me.

17. I wish you could keep a conversation going. I remember good ol' days, and I actually confided quite a bit in you a couple of times - and you did in me, too. But I don't think you remember. Maybe we'll end up proper friends someday, but I doubt it for some reason.

Awh fuck it, there's more stuff I want to say to anonymous people that they'll never read, but oh well, I'm tired, and this is public exposure of the worst kind.