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So Boerd said
Americans help other Americans across the country and show solidarity with them all the time. Remember "Boston Strong"? Or the aftermath of 9/11? Sure we argue, but Americans are incredibly tight-knit when the going gets tough.


When disaster strikes, perhaps, but in the running of daily life? In terms of helping others with daily struggles? Not even slightly. When there has been an "attack on America", America responds, I'll admit that. But beyond those times of perceived threat to the whole of America, not really. When the struggles only exist for some of America, the rest seem to feed them to the sharks. 50 million people without healthcare can go fuck themselves. (I'm sorry to return to the healthcare example, but it's the one I'm most familiar with and regard as most fundamental.)
mdk said
It's a mistaken perception. Everyone's fighting for a different and more personally-relatable notion of community. For the conservative camp, this usually sounds like 'Founding fathers!' and 'Speak English!' and 'Founded on such-and-such principles!' For the liberal camp, it sounds like 'Racism!' and 'Inequality!' and 'Offensive!' A lot of us want to see power become less federally-centralized. That's not because we 'oppose the existence of any cohesive society,' we simply reject the notion that a 'cohesive society' must be established by the government. Most of us play football, watch FOX and go to church. All of these are expressions of communal identity.


A society isn't just made up of communal identity, though, is it? I'm not arguing that there's no sense of American communal identity. I'm arguing that Americans often seem opposed to the idea of participating in and contributing to their wider, "American" society. They take care of themselves, and they may take care of their local communities (as So Boerd highlighted with the generosity article), but in terms of working together, as a part of a cohesive American society? There's no desire to. There's no desire to help American people in dire straits if they're not a part of your locale. And what I struggle to understand is how someone can take pride in America, and American society, and yet not want to have fuck all to do with American society, outside of, perhaps, that sense of communal identity.

An "every man for themselves" attitude does not gel with the fervour of patriotism many Americans show, regardless of how much they recognise that "every man" likes football.
mdk said
Perfect example to talk about what I mean. Before the trial (before the for god's sake) we had 24/7 coverage in the media proclaiming Zimmerman's guilt. There was never any chance of a fair trial, because the sharks in the media were in full-frenzy, making bookoo dollars off the corruption of every conceivable pool of jurors. To demonstrate just how complete their deception -- have you heard of 'Stand Your Ground?' Of course you have, probably a lot -- it was invoked, at any point of the legal proceedings. I could go on a whole tangent about the trial, because I've actually spent a substantial amount of time reading the depositions, court documents, applicable laws and legal precedents. The short version is, the outcome was decided legally when the prosecutor filed for murder 2 -- but it was decided by MSNBC, CNN, CBS and company on day one of their coverage, by the NRA and the NAACP about an hour later, and the rest of the general public just moments after that. That frenzy is basically the entire reason race relations . It's literally, demonstrably, all the media's fault. Fuck them.....anyway, let's pretend for a minute that none of that happened, and the Martin case was a legitimately botched trial. It's hard to argue that the news could *ever* cover a case more extensively than they covered this. What did all that mobbish outrage accomplish? Did popular oversight impact that poor decision in a meaningful way? Did our collective outcry make them throw out the jury's decision and hang the killer? I'd argue that the Martin case aptly demonstrates just how pointless it is to involve the general public in any legal proceeding, other than the appropriate jury requirement. We say 'innocent until proven guilty,' and 'habeus corpus,' and 'confrontational clause,' and if we mean of it, we really need to put a stop to this bullshit.


Again, I really don't want to get bogged down in whether the Trayvon Martin case was botched, legitimate, or anything else. It was merely an example that sprang to mind, and I honestly don't know enough about it to argue the matter either way.

Whether the media dealt with it appropriately or not in this specific case is sort of irrelevant, in my mind. I'm arguing the principle that we should pay some attention to what goes on in courts and the kinds of decisions being made. Now, in this case, it was perhaps handled poorly and in a very biased manner, and that's fucked up and detrimental. But the overall idea, I'm fully behind. It's important to pay attention to these things, to be aware, to pay attention, because sometimes trials are botched, and poor decisions are made, and often they highlight very important things about our society and its flaws. And there has to be an accountability for these things - judges cannot be allowed to make whatever decisions they want while the public turn a blind eye. For someone who argues for individualistic rights, you're shockingly in support of allowing judicial officials to do whatever the fuck they like, without media coverage and without public knowledge.

Did the public outcry overturn the decision? No, of course it didn't, that would be ridiculous. Judicial officials must be accountable, but neither should they be pressured by public opinion. What it did do, however, is draw national attention to a serious, all-pervading issue in American society, one that needs to be discussed and addressed. Let's say it was a poor decision, whether you believe that or not - the question was then asked, "how did this poor decision come about, and what does that say about us?". In your world, where nobody pays attention to such cases and the media do not cover them, that question would never have been asked, and the issue of institutionalised racism - which needs to be discussed, whether you think it exists or not - would not have been addressed or brought back into the public consciousness.
I understand the point you're making, but would also say that those individual actions of generosity only affect one's locale and their community. My point was that Americans seem to take enormous pride in America as a whole, yet refuse to contribute to the whole of American society. Sure, they will help the guy next door, but the guy a couple of towns over, or a couple of states away, can go fuck themselves. And yet the pride lies in all of American society, not just in the locale they're willing to help.

I realise that I'm making sweeping generalisations here, and that it is not nearly so black-and-white as I paint it - don't worry, I'm not implying all Americans are inherently selfish individuals. I'm just highlighting this self-contradicting trend I've seen: this enormous, unconquerable pride in the abstract idea of one's country and culture and society (as opposed to simply pride in one's local community), while simultaneously actually opposing even the existence of any cohesive, "American" society which is unified and works together as one thing. How can someone take have such a fervour in their pride in the whole, in "America", yet not really want "America" to exist, desire everything to exist on a local, disconnected, individualistic level? That's the contradiction that confuses me.

EDIT: I think you sorta focused in on my single use of the word "socialist", which was regarding one specific example, and took that to be the basis of everything I said. It wasn't. I'm not talking about what the government does or does not do in regards to America and American society. I'm talking about the contradiction in the views of individuals - whether it is the government or some other body that allowed/encouraged the existence of a coherent, wider "American" society, as opposed to local community, is irrelevant to my point.
mdk said
In a global sense though we are *ludicrously* right-wing. If you think of politics as a scale, we're easily holding up all the euroliberal jerks with our fat american rightness :)Our 'left wing' is cobbled together from statists and anarchists, but we're all very individualist in the States. That's.... I mean, that's how we became the States, really, it's in our blood. I'm not sorry.


I've always found the States incredibly interesting for this reason. There's such a fierce sense of pride in country, of patriotism, and yet nobody actually seems interested in participating in or contributing to wider society. There's no willingness to sacrifice anything on the individual level for the sake of one's neighbours, with the focus instead being on saving oneself - there's an absolute loathing for any kind of socialist policies like universal healthcare, for example. And yet, there's this patriotism, where they declare to love their country. Well, what is a country but the people in it? What is America but Americans? How can you claimto love America but be so opposed to being a part of and contributing to the society of people that actually makes it up? I've never really understood that, as a Brit. I know one could argue that the love of their country is for the ideals of that country, or the individualistic rights that country grants them, but I still just can't really connect with the logic.
mdk said
If it was written by a reporter then it was written with an agenda, and I categorically reject it. We have an established system for determining blame in any such situation, and it's called 'Court,' and it never goes there unless there's a suit. So..... what's the big damn deal? It'll go to court and get settled, or it'll get settled before it goes to court. And after it's settled, the news will smell more blood and head back in for the feeding frenzy. I won't be a part of it.


Is it not important to be aware of the decisions being made by the judiciary system? If we, as a society, pay no attention to these things, then the potential for injustice and abuse of power increases exponentially. Taking a slightly charged example, look at the Trayvon Martin case - the courts decided in a manner people found unquestionably unjust. If everyone took your point of view, nothing would have been said, and the blatant racism that exists in court would never have been questioned and brought back into the spotlight as an issue.
Now, I'm not trying to spark a Trayvom Martin case debate. I'm just using it as an example. In essence, the courts cannot simply be left to do as they wish without the knowledge or mediation of wider society, meaning it's important to pay attention to and discuss controversial court cases.
In . 12 yrs ago Forum: Spam Forum
Seravee said
Come on, guys. This is silly.


Listen to Sera. Sera is wise.
In I Dunno 12 yrs ago Forum: Spam Forum
mbl said
Was gonna post something about Captain Morgan, but couldn't find any good gifs of the commercials.


Ah, Captain Morgan's rum, my eternal love and vice. My abusive relationship with it has become famed. I adore it, drink it by the bottle, and always regret it.
mdk said
It would be forgivable if they weren't on repeat. I had a deep and engaging conversation (as I'm wont to do, sometimes); two days later, the other person is posting in a near-identical thread, saying the exact same things and pretending like we hadn't *just* talked about all those exact same questions moments ago. Why am I gonna waste my time with that?


This is why I stopped coming here much. Also, people using fifty thousand words where fifty would have sufficed. There's eloquence, and then there's just waffling to the point nobody can pin down what you're saying without responding one paragraph at a time.
I have to admit I've only read the first five pages, but it's gone 2am and I'll just have to catch up on the rest in the morning. I apologise if the brief point I'm about to make has been addressed in the last two pages.

Most of what I wanted to say has already been covered - primarily by Jorick - but this is addressed to those who believe suicide is not simply flat-out wrong.
What I find curious is that almost every single post here seems to only consider diagnosed mental illness in relation to suicide. There's a line being drawn between clinical depression and any other type of grief, sadness, or trauma - and one side of the line is acceptable cause for suicide, and one is not. Apparently one can only reasonably commit suicide if they've been raped, or have suffered terrible abuse, or have a mental condition diagnosed from their doctor.
Depression is not simply "long term sadness". It has a specific set of symptoms and effects - specific characteristics; a syndrome. Without those, you aren't clinically depressed. That does not, however, mean you haven't been soul-crushingly miserable for a very long time. Abject misery and clinical depression aren't at all the same, but they can both be devastating to someone's will to live, regardless of the fact that one fits into a convenient categorisation of symptoms and can therefore be an official "condition", and one cannot be pinned down with a set of specific characteristics/symptoms.
Someone can be not technically depressed - not exhibiting those specific symptoms - while being just as unhealthy and unhappy in mind, to the point that it can drive them over the edge. Does the fact that their symptoms, the causes of their misery, do not fit any set of symptoms common enough to be a recognised condition, mean they are more selfish than those with diagnosed depression for committing suicide?

The other point I've just thought of is this: for those of you condemning anybody who just "does it for attention", or who tries to make others feel guilty in their notes, or whatever... do you not think that being desperately insecure enough to need that attention, or bitter and angry and hurt enough to lash out at the world in that way, in itself signifies that something is deeply wrong and that the person needs help?
It is very similar to an argument I see frequently: that self-harmers who don't hide their fresh cuts or old scars, or who post them on Facebook, are "only doing it for attention", don't really have any issues, or whatever. What seems ridiculous about this is that the people making the argument don't seem to realise that such a need for attention and pity is, in itself, demonstrating that that person is deeply in need of support and help. Anybody who really was cutting themselves for attention is clearly just as pathological and needing of support as someone doing it for reasons considered more "legitimate". Exactly the same thing applies here, to the case of suicide.

I'll maybe edit this to read better in the morning; apologies if it's a little poorly phrased or thought out.
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