[OOC] This, That, and The Other Thing ~ PopeAlessandros x Jiskastya

[Jiskastya]

Getting it turned into a multi-squad thing works fine for me. That will also add a little mystery, because it probably starts out relatively routine, so why it devolved.

Umm... I'd be cool with having the Organization connected to the butchering if and only if there is a very sound reason for it. Not necessarily good, but sound. Something more than corruption. It is something... I'd be open to, although I'd rather not make it key. If you know what I mean. Either way, if we are going to follow that, I'd like to know what and why before we start. Because it will directly connect to whatever the strangeness is.

The same with the adoption thing. I find the feasibility of that rather limited, because I can't help but imagine that the people who work for the Organization don't exactly get "weekends off." I also imagine that they would highly frown upon having a child in the base of the Organization. In all honesty, I really only threw out that idea because I know you liked the idea of the half day and night children. It isn't one of my favorite ideas. Lets put that one on hold, and once we get a little further into the story we can re-open it for discussion. By that point I will know both the world and the characters a little better, and my decision will be easier.

I could see the traditional families sending children to be in the Organization, but I wouldn't say that they are the majority of the workers. After all, there aren't that many rich people in the world, there simply can't be, and the Organization kind of needs to be everywhere at once. Which means they either need really powerful workers or a large number of workers. My guess is that they would go for both. And only a small portion of the available families can't fill that. I'm certainly happy to have that be a part of things, and I could see one supposedly "elite" force entirely comprised of those kinds of people, but I also think there are enough people who would join the Organization for other reasons. Money, protection, a chance to have a position of authority, or simply the foresight to see that the Organization my really be a necessary and good thing.

[PopeAlessandros]

Okay, good with the multi squads devolving thing. . . . .

I don't have any solid ideas on the matter as of yet, but I do have a thought that may help in solving the “Why” thing. What I can see as a 'solid' reason would have to do with keeping the secret. The mass killings would be specifically for children born from humans and non-humans because the higher ups see them as a threat to the secret. . . . .Just the first idea at the forefront of my mind.

*Shuffles around* Okay, we can talk about kid thing laters. . . . :P

No no, not. . . .Hnnnn, how to say. . . . .Since most of the races are rather long lived, and each generation of aristocratic family would have their children join, I can see most of the workforce made up of those kinds, since. . . .Well, I had the idea that the Organization doesn't pay all that well, and if all the workers are from rich families they will not mind the low pay. However the families that are not rich have to find other jobs that pay better, or take on a second job if they still want to work for the Organization. Just an idea. *Though happens* I know you said that the Organization needs to be everywhere, and I agree, but I just had an idea that wight work for both thoughts. How about the Organization has been established so long that they don't really NEED too many workers because there are no more mass riots or incursions. Like, they've downsized since for the most part a Organization member showing up on a scene is normally more than enough to defuse a situation.

Just a though that hit me. Oh, and I got the feeling that you had a very different idea with this line “Money, protection, a chance to have a position of authority,” so, what were your ideas on that? Care to elaborate?

[Jiskastya]

That might be a reasonable why... The organization is dedicated to keeping the secrets of the Walkers. That is their whole purpose. I have two concerns with that, though. First, how could one of those children be born without the secret being revealed in the first place? I can't imagine that the Walker children are born disguised. Which would mean, that as soon as the child was born the secret would be "out." Also, sure, rape, but still. Why would one of the Walkers want to have sex with a human? Don't the Walkers kind of consider humanity... the bane of existence? Also, as a slightly more major problem, why would that mean that the Organization members have to get killed? They know their job. They'd do it if they need to. Or, at least, not all of them wouldn't do it...

What I could see, though, is having a group of Walkers who are looking to purposefully expose the presence of the Walkers to the humans. Probably in some sort of massive conquest thing. A kind of Cult, dedicated to having the walkers rise above and take control of the "inferior" humans, who only rule through population. And perhaps they have some messed up sort of magic that can do some minor mind control. Which is why everyone, Organization members included, was killed. Because they succumbed, and turned traitor. So one of the powerful higher ups ahd to come and personally clean up the mess. But, of course, that didn't end the Cult. It could be one of the recurring problems, if we like. And, for one reason or another, our characters are directly connected to it. Either because they can resist the mind control, or they are literally connected to it, or someone simply decides that they are the two for the job.

Why would the Organization not pay well? And, perhaps even more importantly, why would people who are very rich, and are therefore used to living in luxury, hire on for a job that doesn't pay well, that requires them to obey all orders, and, if they don't pay well, probably doesn't have a high standard of living? It is completely counter-intuitive. Frankly, the rich go to where they can make more money. And maybe the Walkers are different, but it still seems backwards to me that they would go and work. especially if they are rich enough and influential enough that they could probably get a job anywhere they wanted. Also, the fact that they live a long time would mean that there would be less workers, not more. A longer life span means less children per year, which means less children who would be of the right age to work in the Organization.

I don't think the number of employees would really go down with time. Yes, there may be less problems, the Organization would have control. But the more control there is the more dissent there will be brewing just under the surface. As soon as it starts looking like the Organization is weakening in power, people are going to try and rise up. If the presence of one of the Enforcers is enough to calm things down, that still means you need an enforcer at every dispute, and I can't imagine that the frequency of disputes is going to have gotten any less. Think about America. We have the strongest military in the world, but we have to constantly work to keep growing it, so that it still looks like we could whup your ass in a second if you step out of line. I don't think the Organization is looking for a point where they can just kind of... fade out. They are the power, and whether they are a good power or a bad power is beside the point. They are going to want to stay in power.

What I meant by “Money, protection, a chance to have a position of authority,” ... Think about America again. The reason so many people work in the Government, whether they like the government or not, whether they like their job or not, is because it pays well, because it is a very stable job, one that they are not likely to lose, and it has very good benefits. Seeing as the Organization is pretty much like the government of the Walkers, why would it be any different? Besides, many of the downsides to a government job, like the fact that it is incredibly inefficient and many people are lazy, would be removed because of the strict control within the Organization itself. Even if the Walkers don't like the Organization, if they see it as a cruel overlord, there are still going to be people who will go and work for them. Maybe their family is sick, and they need the Organization to pay for whatever substitutes as Medical Bills. Which the Organization would probably only do for employees. Maybe they want to be close to the "boss," so that, if or when things go bad, they will be on the "winning" side. All I'm trying to say is that, just because the Organization is disliked, doesn't mean that people won't still go and work for them.

I think I got everything... let me know if I missed anything you'd like me to expand upon.

[PopeAlessandros]

Sorry this took a while, but RL, y'know :P

I can't imagine that the Walker children are born disguised. Which would mean, that as soon as the child was born the secret would be "out."

Only if it was the woman who was human, or the couple still together. The rest of the answer for this is in the next part. . . .

Also, sure, rape, but still. Why would one of the Walkers want to have sex with a human? Don't the Walkers kind of consider humanity... the bane of existence?

Not all Walkers think of humans that way, and in fact I can see several races even liking humans. Like Vampires, sure the stereotype is thinking of them as little more than chattel, but there is always the odd vampire love story. I see many other races that may fall in love and want to have a life with their human partners if they are human compatible. Dragons themselves have often been known for taking human lovers and they bearing halfbreed children. I do not see a united level of hatred across the board for any race,even the humans, so, yeah, they could be in love with their human lovers and be trying to keep it secret. Hence, halfbreed children.

Also, as a slightly more major problem, why would that mean that the Organization members have to get killed?

For me this is thinking a little too far ahead. This is the question our characters have to try and answer and I think it would be no fun for us to have the answer to it right off the bat. I like creating a situation for the characters to go through and actually have them work for it. It's a lot harder to do when I already know the answer :P

Why would the Organization not pay well? And, perhaps even more importantly, why would people who are very rich, and are therefore used to living in luxury, hire on for a job that doesn't pay well, that requires them to obey all orders, and, if they don't pay well, probably doesn't have a high standard of living? It is completely counter-intuitive. Frankly, the rich go to where they can make more money. And maybe the Walkers are different, but it still seems backwards to me that they would go and work. especially if they are rich enough and influential enough that they could probably get a job anywhere they wanted.

The answer to this one ties into a later thing I had, but a little on this here that doesn't tie in. Rich. Old and well to do doesn't have to, and in the case of non humans, have anything to do with money. So, rich going where the money is, has nothing to do with the older families I'm thinking of. It's far to human a way of thinking.

Also, the fact that they live a long time would mean that there would be less workers, not more. A longer life span means less children per year, which means less children who would be of the right age to work in the Organization.

I have always thought this idea as bassakwards. Elves can breed as fast at humans, and do. Dragons lay a clutch of eggs and with the modernization have less to worry about, and Were most likely have multiple births as well. I will never accept a direct correlation between life span and children born per lifespan/year/whatever. Since were going with a small selection of races, it still makes sense that the humans outnumber the on humans, however, I really have a strong distastes for the crap about longer lifespans making for less babies. . . . It's always bothered me, and if it's not too off for you, I'd like to toss that old ideal behind in this RP.

I don't think the number of employees would really go down with time. Yes, there may be less problems, the Organization would have control. But the more control there is the more dissent there will be brewing just under the surface. As soon as it starts looking like the Organization is weakening in power, people are going to try and rise up. If the presence of one of the Enforcers is enough to calm things down, that still means you need an enforcer at every dispute, and I can't imagine that the frequency of disputes is going to have gotten any less.

Again this implies that the vast majority of non humans are just looking for an excuse to cause trouble, which after all these years I don't see. I see most being more or less tolerant or even content with living their lives in peace. Sure, most may have a distaste for the shadow living, but they've grown use to it, so, yeah. . . .

Think about America.

No no no no, no. . . .Again, this goes with the “Thinking too human” thing, which will have a tie in further down, but just saying, no. . . .Too human in your thoughts.

I don't think the Organization is looking for a point where they can just kind of... fade out. They are the power, and whether they are a good power or a bad power is beside the point. They are going to want to stay in power.

What I meant by “Money, protection, a chance to have a position of authority,” ... Think about America again. The reason so many people work in the Government, whether they like the government or not, whether they like their job or not, is because it pays well, because it is a very stable job, one that they are not likely to lose, and it has very good benefits. Seeing as the Organization is pretty much like the government of the Walkers, why would it be any different? Besides, many of the downsides to a government job, like the fact that it is incredibly inefficient and many people are lazy, would be removed because of the strict control within the Organization itself. Even if the Walkers don't like the Organization, if they see it as a cruel overlord, there are still going to be people who will go and work for them. Maybe their family is sick, and they need the Organization to pay for whatever substitutes as Medical Bills. Which the Organization would probably only do for employees. Maybe they want to be close to the "boss," so that, if or when things go bad, they will be on the "winning" side.

I think this is the main dispute point I've been referring to. The organization is, to me, NOTHING like a government. In the initial descriptions of what it is I remember distinctly calling it something like a “Shadow organization outside the law”. And I'd like to stick to that. The are not a governing body, they are more like an outside military force. Also, as this seems to be the case, I also rebel against the idea that the non humans even HAVE a central government type figure. For the most part, most none humans live in their own societies governed but heir own rules and social norms. That's a fact true in any fantasy realm. Elves have their own rules, Dwarves their own, Goblins theirs, and Drakes theirs. The thought of them under one set ruling body is. . . .Actually rather distasteful to me. This would, to me, destroy a lot of what makes it fun to be or even see any of these races interact or simply live their lives. One set of laws, like America, makes things to uniform even in their rebellions of disputes. It's the differences between the races and their societies that is fun and entertaining, and one of the things that makes the fantasy realm so much fun for me. So, yeah. . .Sorry if that is offensive in any way, it's just how I roll? I really hate to think of the non humans having/being like human stereotypes.

All I'm trying to say is that, just because the Organization is disliked, doesn't mean that people won't still go and work for them.

I agree with this, however I think the reasons behind joining would be a lot different than the base human reasons one would join a workforce. The noble kids would join to better understand humans, to learn the ins and outs of operating in their society, so that when they finish their tour and go back to their families they would be able to make their clan better and do things that previous generations never thought of, or expand in such directions that they never believed possible. This also ties into why the workforce would be getting smaller. Not only are a lot of the disputes once had rather often tamed down and have very little chance of flaring back up, but the clans are finding better ways to channel their energies and perhaps making their tours shorter. It's what would make the workers from the non noble families more important since they are their for the long haul and such, but would make the mass slaying of the workers all the more dramatic since the members would consist mostly of noble guys. I think it would add an interesting layer and a whole slue of issues that would be fun to deal with.

~*~*~*~*~*~

Sorry if it seemed like I disagreed with you almost every step up there, I just. . . .Don't like generalizing different races into once central group when it comes to fantasy, and, yeah. . . .OH! This idea -

What I could see, though, is having a group of Walkers who are looking to purposefully expose the presence of the Walkers to the humans. Probably in some sort of massive conquest thing. A kind of Cult, dedicated to having the walkers rise above and take control of the "inferior" humans, who only rule through population. And perhaps they have some messed up sort of magic that can do some minor mind control. Which is why everyone, Organization members included, was killed. Because they succumbed, and turned traitor. So one of the powerful higher ups had to come and personally clean up the mess. But, of course, that didn't end the Cult. It could be one of the recurring problems, if we like. And, for one reason or another, our characters are directly connected to it. Either because they can resist the mind control, or they are literally connected to it, or someone simply decides that they are the two for the job.

I can see us working with several of theses ideas, they seem fun. However I don't want to set anything like this too solid since, again, I feel it's too far planning ahead for me to set the motivation in stone so early on. I know I initially had an idea of the motivation for our guys, but that's different in my mind than setting the motivation of the antagonist/s :P I like the idea of our guys being special for some reason. Perhaps one of us can resist and that one has to, I d'know, share blood or magic or something, so that his partner can still keep on working on the case too? Maybe have the one without resistance under the control for a while until the one who can resist notices and have a confrontation to resolve the issue. . . .Looks epic in my head, but again, just a thought :P

Again, sorry this took so long! You were very thorough, so not need for expansion unless you really want to :P

[Jiskastya]

Oh, Pope, we are both making this so very hard... Normally I'm good with taking a long time on planning, but I really do feel like we have made only half an ounce of progress on this. The constant back and forth and changes and disagreements has really killed my buzz... Not that I mind butting heads a little bit, it is great to go back and forth until we are both satisfied, but there are also times when it feels like we each know what we have in our head, and they are both valid options to ourselves, and maybe even moderately valid to each other, and we just wind up in an endless back and forth, and that is about what it feels like we are at now.

If there is some way we can work around that easier I'd love to, but if there isn't... maybe we can come up with a plot that will allow us to do the planning as we go? Something... where a world is just beginning, and at the beginning there is nothing to know, so that there are no expectations to be met, and then we come up with our stories, and slowly build a world together?

[PopeAlessandros]

"There is only light, and dark, no other thing has yet to be. Nither is good, nither is evil, they simply are. The world is yet to form around them, their bodies just having passed from dreams into reality, and now they must together descend, and find what it is they are meant to be. By some unknown will, life will spring around them, and with each new life, the light and the dark, grow."

[Jiskastya]

I'm taking that as acceptance of switching over?

[PopeAlessandros]

*Shrug* You wanted something simple, and this popped into my head. If you want, we can give it a shot, unless there are some changes you wanna make, or had an idea of yer own.

[Jiskastya]

I'd rather build something up together, just so that we balance things out together.

Are you going to want to roleplay as the gods? Or would you rather create gods, and then roleplay as the people in the world they create? Or a combination thereof?

It'd be fascinating to have a god or gods that get mixed into the general affairs of mortals. Just a god that puts on a human skin and wanders around and joins in on adventures. For some purpose, of course, but still an interesting concept.

[PopeAlessandros]

How about god like beings that, at the beginning, interact with the mortals in both a face-to-face manner, and also occasionally donning a mortal facade and walking among them without the mortals knowing it?

[Jiskastya]

Ahkay... My only concern with having the gods interact directly with the mortals as gods is that mortals tend to get demanding if they are allowed to. So, if they know that the gods are real, and the gods want the mortals to worship them, what is to stop the mortals from going "do this or we will stop worshiping you"?

[PopeAlessandros]

That's assuming that the gods want worship. I content, if I were a god, with my creations being happy and not relying on me completely to go about their daily lives. I don't want gods dependent on worship, just god beings that are more. . . I guess one could say, pure or child like? Happy that their creations are happy, and content with being around them?

You once asked me about my being unconventional in things, and this is actually a shining example of one facet to that. True, mortal races in most if not all stories are like you describe, but would it not be fun to make them. . . Different? Mortals that do not worship, simply love and admire their gods. Overjoyed at the simple fact that they are alive and that they were created by caring beings. Since this is supposedly the beginning of existence, we could make something peaceful at fist, and bring conflict in later, perhaps in the form of other beings like ourselves who want to create chaos or something.

[Jiskastya]

Hmm... interesting concept...

I'd rather not bring in "other beings like ourselves," because that means that the gods came from somewhere, and then somewhere there are more of them. It brings them away from god-hood. And I'm certain that there are ways that other gods could appear, but to me it has always felt like, to be a god and not a... being, the gods need to be intrinsically linked to the universe itself. And that means it is at the beginning, and it will be until the end. That is my own bit of unconventional-ism, if you like.

The other possibility is that the main gods, the ones who would be accepted, and also not the ones we would be playing, are not... people-ish-things. They aren't like the Greek or Hindu gods, or even like the Christian god. They are... conscious essences, constant in whatever manner in which they exist, be it chaotic or unchanging, and a part of everything. The ones that we would be playing could either be... like children of these essences, or somehow born due to any conflict that may occur between the essences?

Hmm... I actually have an idea somewhat like that which I haven't thought about in a while... It only has one of the "other" type of god, but I'm sure that could be worked around... Probably better to build from scratch, though. Preconceived notions, and all.

[PopeAlessandros]

So, we would come from a something, and we would take form from the something, and we in turn would make the somethings and someones that we would interact with, and. . . How about the something we came from would be come a part of what we create, still formless and shapeless and stuff, but what allows us to continue with our creating and changing?

[Jiskastya]

That sounds like it could work. We were born from the relationships between two or more things, and then we take those two or more things and weave them together in various patterns to create other things? Is that what you mean?

[PopeAlessandros]

Sure. I know you don't like adding motivation right off the bat, but we could have our guys doing the weaving to, say, perhaps bring peace between the two things? To. . . .I d'know, create structure out of the chaos?

[Jiskastya]

That sounds very reasonable. Perhaps not structure out of chaos, but rather order out of conflict. There needs to be some purpose for us, some reason to weave.

Do you think we should do more than two things? As the essences? Or do you think two is enough?

I think, to fully be able to determine what the purpose of the weaving is, we need to know what the things we would be weaving together are. Agree?

[PopeAlessandros]

I agree, order out of conflict. Two should be good if we wanna keep it simple, which at this point I think is best, and I think, again, to avoid a long epic discussion, we should just leave it at "The stuff we come from" for now, and do the actual figuring later as our guys work with it :P We can discover, along with our characters, just what our purpose it.

[Jiskastya]

So, in the beginning, they don't know what exactly they are doing, or what they are working with? That seems like it might make it hard to... do anything. I'm happy to let them figure out their purpose as they go along, but maybe we should at least pick the two things they will be weaving? Or not...?

Maybe, if we leave it abstract, we could change with what they are weaving over time? Like, it isn't just two things, but an infinite number of things put into two groups?

[PopeAlessandros]

Hnnnnnnn. . . . . . How about going as simple as Positive and and Negative? All things can fall into those two categories, but when mixed would make something new, different, and possibly be the key to making peace?