So Boerd said
~Does or does not matter move in probabilistic ways?
Everything is probability if you want to look at it that way, sure. That doesn't preclude free will, unless your version of free will is random. However, let me counter determinism for you.
If God exists: He programmed everything that lives. It's deterministic.
If God does not exist: Then it depends on your world view. But if you're going to go with biological impulses being deterministic... Then one would have to assume that any biological feeling we have is one we automatically act upon, and that's... Not true. Unless you count our intellectual capacity as being purely instinctive?... But that's nonsensical.
Basically speaking, and this is massively oversimplifying biological so I apologize as this won't be 100% accurate, but there's basically instinct and our intellectual capacity to overcome instinct. An example of instinct, a biological impulse, is sexual compulsions. Things like if you... See an attractive woman. Your brain then responds by readying your body for potential sexual contact and by flooding itself with chemicals that demand it attempt to copulate with the woman using any tools in its arsenal to do so. Four billion years of evolution has "programmed" it to do this, in order to spread your genes on... However... Our intellectual capacity is fully capable of overpowering this urge (unless you're a twisted little puppy) and even dismissing it. We are the only animal that is alive that is capable of completely going against its every biological impulse... Now, most of the time, there's no reason to, but sometimes... There is.
That being said, a significant portion of our history can be pointed to biological impulses having at least some influence for how things ended up the way they are. Like why most societies were male dominated (sexually disposable in combination with greater testosterone in males than females).
Still. I'm sure one could still argue that as deterministic, so... One would probably need to talk to a philosopher better versed in this than me. I am admittedly quite limited in my knowledge of determinism versus free will aside from its literary connotations and that's not enough to talk about the real world with any sort of confidence.
So Boerd said
~Is your brain composed of matter?
... Yes? One would assume so. Unless my brain is made out of rainbow ferrets.
So Boerd said
Because you don't believe in a soul, your thoughts and actions must stem from the particles within your brain. These particles themselves move according to the laws of physics. Therefore, you do not make choices. You are a computer with no programmer.
Aaand this is where you fall off the wheel wagon again. If we went by Biblical logic, then it's deterministic. How? Because God wired my brain. Everything I do is according to God's plan, including being an atheist, so how dare you question his plans.
On the flip side, if I am, say, instead... A byproduct of four
billion years of evolutionary changes, then maybe my brain is simply a thing that processes information and organizes bodily functions, and... Nothing more. There isn't some super advanced psionic physics... Particles... Things... Shit. It's a series of chemicals, and an organ. It is why one can take medications to help with, say, depression: Because despite being an intangible emotion, it is merely a chemical in your brain that causes you to feel sadness.
Not to devalue the human experience or anything, but... No, I genuinely do not believe we are anything special or gifted or otherwise. If anything our history is a fantastic example of just how animistic we really and truly are. We band into packs and fight over territory and resources. We've killed over reasons so absolute irrational and nonsensical, that only an animal could justify it.
We. Are. Animals. I'm sorry if this disturbs you, but we aren't some separate species in our own bubble: We're primates. Which means, yes, we have a primitive biological brain that is severely flawed and limited in its ability to deal with shit that operates so far beyond and above us in terms of scale. Things like the universe, or comprehending four billion years of evolution.
The one unique trait humanity has is our intellectual capacity. We are thus far, so far as we are aware, the most intellectually capable species that has ever lived. And this has proven evolutionarily advantageous. Beyond that?... No, you really can trace a lot of our behaviour to mere biological impulse. Some people are attractive and others ugly because sexuality. Some people are naturally smart and some incredible dumb, because biology. Some are mentally unstable, and some are as boring as the artificial paste in my sandwich... But our intellectual capacity to learn from each other, from the environment, and to grow and build upon what already exists... -That- is what presents us with free will. Because we aren't solely bound to our instincts, you see. Sure, I could just rampantly rape every attractive thing I see, but... I don't. Why? Because I am intellectually capable of knowing that, in doing so, I would be harming someone else. So I overpower my instinctive, biological urges. Now one could argue that an empathetic reaction or an intellectual reaction are still both brain-based, so it's just one bio-function overpowering another, but... Really... It's true. We're basically biological computers with no programmers.
... That's exactly right. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
So Boerd said
I merely state that you are also irrational.
If by that you mean imperfect, duh. Everyone is imperfect. I strive to be as rational as I can be but I don't feign being perfectly rational in all things. I'm not. I have a ferret obsession. Why? Because I fuckin' do. I can't explain it, not really. That's irrational as hell.
So Boerd said
Human rights (which I firmly believe in) are irrational and there is wrong with that.
... Uhh... Wut. No. They're incredible rational. They help preserve the societies we live in and protect us from each other, which increases our overall survivability without compromising our own independent lives. It also puts us all on an equal playing field.
Does it always work? Duh. Of course not. Imperfect people make imperfect things, like the Bible, and it's pro-slavery messages. It (human rights) will always require tweaking as time goes on to better suit the world as it grows and changes and so on.
So Boerd said
Just stop calling the religious irrational because you both hold beliefs of equal evidence.
I did not, at any point, call the religious irrational. If anything, I have openly fought with Gwazi when I thought he was going too far in painting out the religious as being just that. If anything, my posts have called for cooperation. Yes, I take pot shots at religion, and things I think are silly. Like a talking donkey is in the Bible. A !@#$ing. Talking. Donkey. Admit it that's kind of hilarious and a little bit ridiculous.
HOWEVER, don't mistake my disdain for aspects of religion, and mockery of others, to mean that I think religious people are irrational or stupid. Religious people are just as capable of doing incredible smart and intuitive things. Things like art, and music. Like Gregorian chants. Like the Catholic Church's funding of science, such as astrology. Speaking of science, Isaac Newton was Christian, and he came up with the first really solid theory of gravity. Yeah some things about it were wrong later, but that doesn't discount the fact that the man was fucking
genius for his time, despite believing in things that, I think are a little ridiculous.
So Boerd said
If you don't believe because you don't want to, that's fine, but it isn't because you are more rational that you don't believe.
I don't believe because skepticism taken to its rational end point leads to atheism. I want you to read this very carefully:
Skepticism taken to its rational
end point, results in atheism. SKEPTICISM. You don't have to be 100% skeptical of everything. Faith is in no way worse than skepticism. It's just your flavour of ice cream: So long as you're a good person I couldn't give a rat's ass what it is you believe. You could believe Japanese school girls rape tentacle monsters in heaven for all I care, really. If Christianity strikes your fancy for being the most believable thing, then believe in it. I'm not going to tear down your church or stalin-execute you for not not believing, or for not being as skeptical as I am.
I did not, at any point, say that I am more rational than you. I said that I am more skeptical than you. Humongous difference.
