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@Everyone: Role call, who all is here? Just checking since I dropped the ball, going to continue, just need to know how many are still alive and kicking.
Jig said
Could you expand on this with regard to post length? It's a great article, but it highlights one of the biggest challenges of RPìng: contributing a noteworthy post long enough to feel worth reading without resorting to godmoding, unnecessary fluff, or the unreasonable demand of having every post run by every player as one big collaboration. Any further words of wisdom?


Quality over quantity. Construct your post based on how you react to others, then act based on your reactions, then explain those reactions, and if it's still too short, explain what your character thinks might happen and how they would react to that.

So for example. Player A writes about a killer spider. Your character is Johnson, a man with sword. Johnson has many options in this scenario. He can...
--Propose to retreat, or at least fall back and get allies and/or superior footing.
--Leave [Player A's character] to die. (Quite impolite though, and will rightfully get you a reputation as a damn, dirty deserter.)
--Propose a classic flanking attack.
--Charge wildly! (Generally unwise, but sometimes works.)
--Tell [Player A's Character] to fall back while Johnson holds off the spider.
--Attempt to communicate to the spider.
--Etc, etc, etc.

So, knowing Johnson has several options, how do we decide which one Johnson would choose?

Write Johnson's reaction. To the killer spider, then to his compatriot's position. Use exposition to expand on how he thinks of this situation, and to add in Johnson's emotional state, which will help to justify whatever course we take.
"Johnson saw the great, disturbing looking beast with eight spindly legs and giant fangs, with eight, disturbingly vacant black eyes. It frightened him a great deal, and his comrade did not seem to be well equipped to handle it, having only a spear to hold the monstrosity off with."

Lets see. Johnson sees a great monster, he is disturbed by how inhuman it looks, he is frightened of it, and he thinks his comrade is not well armed to deal with the threat. So would Johnson charge this monster? Probably not. Would he suggest a flanking maneuver? Well, probably not again, he thinks his comrade is ill equipped to deal with the situation. So what will Johnson do? A. Run away and leave his friend to die, or B. Propose a retreat. Well, this is a role play, so having Johnson leave his comrade in arms to die horrible would probably incur the ire of all of your fellow role players for the rest of the story and end in the GM hitting you with the mighty karmic hammer of +4 sucks to be you.

So Johnson is going to propose a retreat, based on his reactions and expository thoughts and emotional state. So how will Johnson do this? Probably by planning it out (exposition), then telling his comrade through dialogue (action) what to do, followed up with obeying his own plan (action).

"Realizing that winning was out of the question and that there was no sense to taking such a great risk, Johnson took a quick look around the cavern they were in. The tunnel they came from was large enough that the spider could pursue them, but a second tunnel, behind them and away from the spider which they noticed earlier, wouldn't fit the spider, but it would fit them. They could run there. Johnson yells out to his comrade. "DAVIAN! WE MUST FALL BACK! OVER THERE!" He points at the man-sized tunnel. "THE SPIDER CAN'T REACH US THERE!" He hoped that his comrade would listen to him, and then immediately bolted for it himself, deciding that he couldn't stay any longer even if he wished to do so."

If this is still too short, you can also add in additional thought and planning, even a little bit of motivation if you wish, though try to avoid overdoing it. (Remember: Exposition is like alcohol. Too much and you overdose and die.)

"Johnson knew that this whole situation would be a trap the moment he heard it being told to him in the Stereotype Inn. The booze was too cheap and the barkeep cheaper, damn him. Who knew what was inside the man-sized hole as well, it could be hordes of cockroaches or other disgusting things. Maybe even smaller spiders, with their luck, it probably was smaller spiders... Johnson swallowed back his fear as he approached the tunnel entrance. His sister was depending on him, there was no time for giving up and going home!"

So! What do we have?



That is easily enough to go into casual role plays with. It tells the other players everything they need to know, succinctly, and this assumes there is only one action going on in total to react towards. Remember, in a typical group role play, you will have at least three or four other people's previous actions to react towards before you even instigate your own. You can easily balloon a post's length to twice or even three times this one's size without any real level of effort on your part, except by acknowledging what others have done, which is what you should be doing anyway.



This is the minimum for advanced, and again, predisposes itself on only one action to reply to.

Remember, most importantly, at the end of the day: Length is never a substitute for quality. Length is a tool, it is not a means to an end. Combat sequences, action sequences, anything that has rapid movement and quick changes to the scene should not have massive amounts of expository garbage. That is the definition of purple prose, which is a poison that will kill any meaning your writing meant to convey. Even as a GM, in advanced, with role plays that typically last several months to outright multiple years, during combat sequences, I usually reply with one paragraph to each player involved. Because all of the players involved have not only what I've written to respond to, but each other, so if I shower them each with three or four or even five paragraphs of information, I'm going to be utterly drowning them in work just to be able to respond in a coherent manner, that addresses everyone's contributions to the situation... And I know for a fact a lot of people just don't have time to sit down and assimilate three hours worth of reading, to then write up at least two more hours of work on their part. Especially not in a timely manner.

So, if you have to release a short post to keep the story going... Do it. If you have to ask the GM a question or two quick to get the information you need to then decide what your character will do, do it. It's all about pressing forward, not about how pretty the post looks.
If I missed anyone you let me know.
"Then have the rules be changed in your favour. I do not plan on dying from the failings of others." -Abida Qisaf, Page 2.
West Watch Tower

As Maeven reloaded her gun she would notice oil and other chemical substances rolling down from Fafnir's wing, past his belly, and dripping down onto her. The spirit within the crystal shuddered with an incomprehensible amount of rage, but it at least seemed as though nobody was paying them any mind. Even as Draza hopped over, and began to talk to herself, the two of them didn't particularly make for an intimidating combo at the moment.

Naream & Esyllt would be unpleasant surprised by their attempted summoning of the golem, assuming they were still conscious to see the hooved demon simply cleave it in two as it was still forming. They hadn't accounted for the fact that, indeed, the hooved demon had been charging at them, and with its larger form, it required fewer footsteps to reach them. Destroyed before it could even form, the golem's upper half parasails over Esyllt, showering her unconscious form in a spray of blood. The hooved demon chuckled grotesquely, sounding more like a pair of teeth grinding themselves on a sawblade, as it grew closer to Naream, who continued to try and drag himself away...

Aëyr & Abida on the other hand move for Gustavo and Meryl. Aëyr's charge was quick and as her hand reaches out for Meryl, she comes up only inches short as Gustavo shoves Meryl out of the way. Aëyr then receives a rather nasty kick to the side as Abida closes the gap. Both of his daggers go up to block but the blow from Abida--between her strength training and biological heritage--was sufficient to knock Gustavo down onto his back, rendering him unable to stop Meryl from committing her next act...

...Which was to immediately dart over to Draza and grab her backpack. With a simple poke from both Draza and Maeven, the illusion ends, just mere moments before the hooved demon was about to cleave a panicked looking Naream in two. Even the bodies disappeared, leaving just Gustavo and Meryl. With a shrug, Meryl shoves the detonator into Draza's hands, then rifles out of Draza's backpack a cupcake, which she nibbles on contendedly while Gustavo merely stares. "... Wh... What... Really..." Gustavo says with just a slight tone of irritation. Meryl shrugs. "The game isn't fun on an empty stomach!"

The remaining ravens in the area take off and flee, as smoke continues to rise in the distance near the lakeside part of the town. Gustavo glares at Abida and Aëyr, and sighs as he drops his daggers and raises his hands. "We surrender." He states plainly. Meryl continues to munch away on the cupcake, not paying any heed to whatever others might be doing around her.

At least this part of the town was safe, now. Confirmed, in fact, by the sights of the civilians who had been held hostage, sighing in relief, hugging each other, and looking with great joy and gratitude towards their saviours. One man, with short blonde hair, approaches Esyllt and Naream, quickly pulling out a doctor's kit and treating them, to wake up Esyllt and stabilize Naream. He doesn't introduce himself, and judging by the scar across his neck, he likely couldn't.
East Watch Tower

As the party left the East Watch Tower, they might catch the sight of Dirge returning to pick up the corpse of the fallen half-orc, and then march off solemnly, leaving the defused bomb and destroyed dummies behind him. There was nothing more to really be said here, save that the area was now safe, though unlike the Western Watch Tower, if anyone was alive here, they had no intentions of revealing themselves quite yet.

Mission Complete.
Town Square

Rayvon's orders were heeded by the civilians in the area, with the adults gathering the children and keeping them indoors. A few dashed out to deal with the small fire that had started, gathering the mixture of water and blood at the broken open well and repressing their gag reflex to toss it up onto the burning building, though steered clear of the small fight breaking out amongst them. As Wayne laid dying at the well, a couple of civilians came to him and began to offer him their blood, attempting to keep him going until the town doctor could reach him to sew the wounds closed. A strange sight likely for any foreigners to see regular people trying to save a vampire of all things.

Two of the remaining militia stared on at the fight in a slight stupor. They stayed back and started talking to each other. "Shouldn't we do somethin' Jim?" Asks the shorter of the two. "I mean, they're fightin' over nothin'." Jim, the taller of the two, shook his head. "Nah Thomas, that'd be a shit for brains move. Look at em'. They're heroes, solvin' the worlds most complex shit, we're just a couple of guys who are lucky to have lived." Thomas looks up at Jim. "...You don't really believe in fate, do you?" Thomas looks back down at Jim. "O'course I do! I swear I remember like it was yesterday, bits o' pieces o' this town were blown to bits cuz' a couple o' incompetent brothers tried to save us instead of this scary lot!... N' then I heard some scribbles, like with a quill, and I woke up, and it was today... Again!" Thomas shook his head and slapped the back of Jim's head, though he had to stand on his tippy toes to do it. "That's dumb! You're dumb!... Ah lets just go help put out the fire now." Jim nods. "Yeah, yeah, okay... Gotta admit though... The black one's got a nice, round arse." Thomas blinks in confusion. "Which un'?" Jim points at Andrea, who was bent over taking care of Ceann. "The un' wavin' at us, obviously, you daft, short fool." Thomas chuckles. "Yeah, that she do, Jim, that she do..." An older woman then screeches at them both from across the plaza, waving and pointing at the fire. "GO AND DEAL WITH THAT FIRST YOU DIMWITTED INBRED MORONS!" Jim and Thomas immediately hustle into action at that point, obviously terrified of the rather sharp looking woman, who glared at the Queen's Blades. "An' next time you wanna spat, at least 'ave a go at it so the customers in me Inn can 'ave a few bets at the expense o' yer' health, dammit." She mutters as she goes back inside of her small Inn.

As for Laenaia, she would see a couple of curious civilians walk over to her, and cautiously offer her their blood to help her get better. Again, the generosity towards vampires was staggering for one not accustomed to such a place.

Overall, it seemed that whatever usefulness that the Queen's Blades had here, was at a close. The civilians were safe, and though they paid a high price for it, those civilians would remember them, at least.

Mission Complete.
Raven's Inn

Aslo's bow is followed up with the cat growling lowly. It seemed the sedative was having a limited effect. Probably due to it being designed for people, and it was being used against a "kitten" that was easily almost ten times the sheer mass of a person. Mikan giggles nervously and starts petting the cat. "... Nice and calm kitty..." She looks up to Aslo and points to the tower. "... You should probably get inside."

As Nadira and Maher reach the top, they would see cobwebs and dust across the ceiling of the tower, along with the chest on the floor just a few feet away. On the opposite end of the chest was the open window they saw it from. They could both feel the magic emanating from the chest, and atop the chest was a note, scrawled in common tongue. It read as such: "The bomb is in here! Along with a riddle. Solve the riddle, and the bomb doesn't explode. Fail to solve it properly, and everyone in and around the tower will die... If you run now, then you might make it out, but all the civilians will die instead!"

Opening the chest they would see a bomb with three crystals. (Identical to the configuration of the bomb in Town Square). The crystals each glowed, the first was transparent, the second white, and the third black. On the transparent crystal was the shape of an eye. On the white crystal, the shape of a book. The black crystal, the shape of a circular object, likely a planet. The note continued to the riddle the moment they opened the chest: "What is the cycle of knowledge to a man?"
Lakeside Rendezvous

As Zayn moves closer and closer towards the Lakeside where the smoke was rising from he could feel a potent magical force nearby. It would be familiar, one he has seen at least once before as he burst into the clearing, panting as he did. The sight that would greet him would be one that codified the stories told by the world of the legends that came after Renalta's rise back to power. Everywhere littering the ground there were the corpses of various men and a few animals, one could guess they were once part of the Carnival of Chaos, though only barely, as the occasional flame still licked one corpse or another. Standing scattered amongst this corpse filled field was a few scattered militia, who were mostly in awe of the whirlwind going on around them, almost entirely unnecessary, in fact.

Queen Kouri stood in the middle of the carnage, panting, her blue hair a little messy but having suffered no wounds. Fire still wreathed her hands up to her arms, so hot it had turned to a bright blue, the heat which Zayn could feel hints of even several feet away. Her equally blue eyes look towards Zayn, nodding in approval at his arrival. She was just as beautiful as the legends put it, too, even in this battle frenzied state. Speaking of, as a large wolf growled behind Kouri, she smiled a little, hearing the all too familiar howl of another, more powerful canine. Leaping several feet from a rooftop and throwing the upper torso of a man away, a grey-black furry blur flew through the air at the wolf. Hitting it before it could even reasonable react, it became clear what the blur was: A werewolf wearing a leather collar, which viciously and mercilessly tore the wolf into several, much smaller chunks with her claws that could likely rip their way through plate mail like a knife through hot butter.

At this point, Alicia and Kasim finally caught up to Zayn, who had a head start on them.

The lycanthrope moved on all fours quickly to Kouri, who smiled softly. With a quiet, soft whimper, she nuzzles her head against Kouri's leg, and Kouri kneels down and runs her hand through the werewolf's fur gently, scratching behind the ears and making sure to avoid the blood-soaked claws and underbelly. She then looks over to Zayn, Kasim, and Alicia, and speaks with an authoritative tone of voice. "Ah, there you are. Glad to see you three are alright... Meet your other queen. Alexandria." Alex almost seemed to have a smug expression towards Kasim especially with the way that Kouri fawned over her. "We'll wait here for a minute or so while we wait for--" She is interrupted by the sound of someone dragging something along the dirt towards them. From around the corner of a building behind Kouri and ahead of the trio, came a tall, noble looking man who immediately inspired salutes from the militia. Dean Hansen, carrying a very bloodied one handed warhammer called Godsplitter, was dragging a kobold over to the group. Tossing him to the ground he points at the two queens. "Talk." The Kobold scrambles to its feet. "BUTIFIDOJAMESWILL~" Dean swings his warhammer and slams it into the ground at the kobold's feet, causing it to shriek in terror as a small crater is left behind. "Talk or I will send you into orbit." The kobold nods rapidly and scrambles over to Kouri. "MISS QUEENIE QUEEN MADAME MISTRESS MA'AM! Jameses rans away, most of the boomy kegs are done for! I is sorry for hurtings yous! There's a big biiig big tent though! I-I-I can tell you all about Jameseseseses home! Ohhh... Oh, yes yes, aaand..." He pulls out a small gem from his pocket. "I gots a soul gem from the place the big tent filled place is! You can use it to tracks his homey cozy place! Yes!" He then looks back at Dean and whimpers. "Me can not go to big cheese ball in orbit now?" Dean nods, with a small grin on his face.

Kouri then looks back at the trio, sighing softly. "What is going on outside?... We have been tied up here holding off the main advance." Kouri then stands up slowly, and looks over the trio for injuries. Not spotting any, she looks around the area, awaiting their response.
EDIT: This thread might just turn into a general Q&A thread. Look further down for more details.

This is a basic skill set that everyone should learn at some point as a role player. It will also likely help you with writing a story. I would also like to point out that this is a prolific issue that many role players struggle with and do not even know it.

The Action-Reaction wheel, and the value/type of actions.

First, however, lets define what a player's job is, at its most basic core.

First and foremost, as a player, your job--before all other things--is to contribute actions to the role play so that the story is pushed forward. If you have a post where your character(s) commit zero actions in the post, you have successfully created a completely useless waste of time for everyone around you. If that sounds harsh, think for a minute: How do you possible continue a story, if everyone who has posted before you has had their characters do quite literally nothing? It's much harder to push a collaborative story forward if everyone else refuses to cooperate with you.

So! How do you create an everlasting chain of actions? The action-reaction wheel.

The action-reaction wheel is the basic premise that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Apply this to your writing, and watch the magic happen. When player A announces their name through dialogue, that is an action (ex: "My name is John."). When Player B reacts to this action by addressing the previous action and then contributing an action that follows it (ex: "Hello John (reaction), my name is Sarah, how are you?. (action)"), they can create an indefinite chain of events, with very minimal effort, that grows organically. Just like how if you push a wheel, it takes less momentum to keep the wheel going, than it does to start the wheel moving.

Exposition, on the other hand, gives your fellow players... Nothing of any real value beyond context. Use exposition to explain the reasoning behind an action, and use actions to further the story. Never use exposition to do last second developments of your character. It always comes across as crass and ill thought out. An example of good exposition is using the thoughts of a character to explain the reasoning behind their action, and describing their emotional state in their reaction towards another person's actions. An example of poor exposition is describing a brush that will never come up again, has no purpose, and just ends up being completely pointless for everyone else.

Protip: Only describe things that you will use, or which are relevant, as a golden rule of thumb. If you describe a bush, use it later for something. Whether that's ducking into it to hide, or lighting it on fire, or gathering food from it--anything. Scenery and setting should only be used to further the narrative, not to give yourself a literary handjob.

Now, for the second half: The value/type of actions.

You can skewer actions into several overall varieties and give them scaling values based on the situation at hand, but there's a pretty simple way to do them as well that, while not quite as accurate, is definitely superior for someone trying to master them. Specifically, the value of an action is in how easy it is for others to react to it and springboard further actions off of it reasonable, while the type of action can generally be relegated to passive and active. This does a good job explaining the difference between passive and active, especially MDK's response, so go read it.

As for how "easy" it is to react to an action, the more self-contained an action is, the harder it is to respond to. Two characters in a collaborative post having a long winded conversation with each other, leaving no breaks for others to jump in or respond to, is hard to react towards, it is self-contained by nature. Now contrast that to someone directly addressing your character in conversation, at least leaving you a single line of dialogue to respond to. They've directly reached out to you with their action, that's far more open, it gives you options in how to respond, and actively draws you in, rather than forcing you to attempt to force your way in like some kind of burgler.

Note, though, that collaborative posts are good tools. Use them when you need to expedite a simple conversation, or piece of character development. This is good. Just don't use them nonstop, to the exclusion of pushing away anyone else who could otherwise at some point interject. Collaborative posts are most powerful in scenes with excessive amounts of dialogue, especially the kind of dialogue where it's mostly exposition, to explain who you are, what you're doing, where you're going, and why you're going/doing those things. Like a King addressing the party? Let a party member or two ask a few quick questions to get all the information they need in a collaborative post. Then post that. It expedited what would have otherwise taken two months into a week at the most.

tl;dr:
Action-Reaction wheel is a series of nonstop equal and opposite reactions towards actions and makes physics teachers ludicrously happy. Exposition is like alcohol: A little is fun and makes you buzzed, but too much and you'll end up vomiting all over your friend's carpet and become a useless 160+ pound sack of flesh in the living room that nobody can ignore. The more you specifically address your fellow players and NPC's and the environment with your actions, the easier it is for others to respond to you, so be a nice guy, add some fuel to the fire before you pass it along, lest the torch of creativity dwindle and burn out due to your incompetency.

That is all, really. The basics of how to make every post you make in an RP useful. This doesn't guarantee it will always be good, but it does at least guarantee that you will never be the guy that derails the momentum everyone else was building up.
I'm willing to provide any advice anyone is asking for here, but just in case you might have a common question...

Q&A

Q:
Jig said Could you expand on this with regard to post length? It's a great article, but it highlights one of the biggest challenges of RPìng: contributing a noteworthy post long enough to feel worth reading without resorting to godmoding, unnecessary fluff, or the unreasonable demand of having every post run by every player as one big collaboration. Any further words of wisdom?


A: Quality over Quantity, my dear Watson.
@Everyone: Just so y'all know, I've been working on LoR 2's factions, taking advantage of the fact that I can go on an updating spree of all the stuff I don't like in them right now. The mainstays are mostly remaining the same with subtle adjustments. Renalta is still Renalta, though its multicultural ways should be more prevalent. Rheinfeld is still going to have a hardon for men in plate mail, though expect to see a little more civility in them now. Liveria's generally just getting all-round expanded, embracing its gothic roots more and exploiting their uncanny nature. (Like geckos, chameleons, and other small lizards will be very common pets for them now.)

There will however be a few major changes to some of the more outlying factions. Most notable the Amazons, Free Holds, and the Kingdom of Tuleria. (Albeit Tempest before you freak out, yes, I will verify changes to Tuleria with you before any of them are final. Don't worry I'm not hijacking your baby.)

The Amazons are going to have their sexual nature toned down (at least the more obvious/blatant edge of it) in favour of pushing them out of "generic sexy female". They'll embrace magic more, and their talent as potent individual combatants will now shine much brighter than it did before. Their particular talent with blood-related powers, such as the ability to prevent bleeding, and their Shaman/Mesoamerican/Native American roots will also be expanded upon. Part of that includes completely redoing the Queen and Princess. Say hello to the princess. (Source.) Basically I've decided there aren't enough badass women but more than enough walking, talking sex objects. So I decided my Amazons should take a level in Badass and actually be the symbols of empowered women that they're supposed to be.

The Free Holds will start taking cues from more than just its obsessive slaver culture and laissez-faire capitalist system. Don't be surprised if you start seeing Islamic religious symbolism and iconography, because part of the revamp of the Free Holds will be including more middle eastern culture in general there as opposed to some kind of bastardized western desert nation. As well, seeing as how LoR 2 has loosened up from the original in terms of adult content and mature themes and what I'm allowing displayed, expect to see a lot more sexual themes from this place, in certain places. There will also be a series of Arenas in each hold, giving gladiatorial culture a much needed home.

The Kingdom of Tuleria will be having a more myriad army akin to that of the Free Holds in terms of having lots of mercenaries. The difference will be that a lot of those mercenaries will be more foreigners from other lands, making Tuleria the gateway nation for "distant land" characters in the future. Their army compositions are thus, highly unpredictable, but hard to maintain order in, unlike the Free Hold merc armies, which tend to literally be organized armies for sale. It will also help explain the rampant piracy: What else do mercs do when there's no wars? Aside from sleep with all the whores in the Free Holds. Also adding the Grand Admiral of the Fleet. (Source.) "Is that a dragon rocket?!" Yes. Yes it is. It is in fact a literal !@#$ing cannon that shoots dragon-face-tipped rockets. Really obscenely useful for saying "fuck you" on the high seas.

Also, prepare to witness a really clever way to pick up missions, favours, rumours, and so on. At least I hope so.

Welp, that's all for now. Time to make myself some popcorn.
HollywoodMole said I never depicted them in that way... I see others depict them that way...


Never said you did, mate.
Whatever I want to listen to, based on my mood. Which lately has been a whole lot of metal, electronica, and rock n' roll.
@Everyone: Posting in the IC on Friday. Saturday perhaps if I can't muster the will for it on Friday.

If y'all need anything you know the drill. Just ask in the OOC or over a PM.
HollywoodMole said
I hate them because they act like psychopathic people do anything. I've ran into someone who says their character can't feel pain. Is that medically possible without drugs?


As Flamelord said, though, a lot of those things are not very... Pleasant. We evolved the ability to feel pain for a reason. Imagine you cut open your foot and you're bleeding everywhere, but you literally can't feel that.

Kind of seriously bad, really. It's usually associated with some form of nerve damage, too.

But uh, no. Psychopaths in general deal with delusions, auditory and visual, fake or skewered memories, problems feeling or even comprehending empathy and sympathy, intense paranoia... There's a whole slew of symptoms associated with it, and not all psychopaths have all symptoms, as well, symptoms can vary in degrees of severity, then you have those who have triggers that cause those delusions and such versus those who have no control...

Also, another fun fact: No, voices in one's head do not become compulsory. Au contraire, quite often the mental anguish most go through who have voices in their head is because they cannot or do not listen to them, or because the voices are unintelligible. As well, there are both pleasant and unpleasant delusions, and delusions which repeat that can have either nature at the flick of a switch.

And so on, and so on, and so on...

But hey, everybody's gotta be like Hollywood and depict psychopaths and others like them as being nonstop bloodthirsty monsters who want nothing more than to murder and rape, when in reality, the majority of them don't have the ability to understand other human beings, and can't comprehend reality, and usually have a lot more anguish and suffering than murderous thoughts. And that's just sort of sad. Not that it stops role players from capitalizing on that anguish to make incredible shitty plot contrivances for why they just murdered little Timmy without any regret.

See why this might enrage me a little in a special kind of way?
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