Innue

The Everlasting Arena: Main Thread

It clears of the reasoning behind your construction of the system, as well as the background you are pulling it from, which is good to know.

My comments were never about the math, or the importance of it, just merely that the inclusion and execution of it were rather confusing for me.

I would like to reinforce that I never once criticized your roleplay and I am not particular fond of anything I've said being classified as such. If you felt it was, I apologize if my phrasing led it to be construed in that manner, but I do not have the historical background with any of the tiering systems utilized on RPG (or most others for that matter), as I honestly avoided it on the previous guild for very similar reasons (that and avoiding a particular toxin that migrated from the RuneScape Forums).

For now I will remain in other sections of the forums, I do think.

Let's B!tch. I feel it's a healthy release for our roleplay annoyances 2.0

I'm not fond of tier lists.

I've also been rather irked at the behavior of some people I've seen on the RPG that makes me a sad panda.

The Everlasting Arena: Main Thread

LeeRoy said
Tantalum hit the nail on the head there.Also, I've made the initial post.The list of battlegrounds is the second post in the main OOC thread, check those out so you can see what battlefields we'll be using. All people who wish to participate in the RP should finish posting their character sheets.Also, Innue, if you're gonna make persistent criticisms about an RP that you're not participating in then you have all rights to leave.

I generally ask questions before deciding if I will participate in a roleplay to better understand it. In no way was it a criticism to your thread, but so I could understand if this incarnation of an Arena would be fitting for my participation - I was on the fence and considering returning to doing combat roleplay.

The Everlasting Arena: Main Thread

Tantalum said
A few people here might be reading too much into those numbers. At most, they serve as a way of gauging how strong a character is at a glance. In-character, they aren't going to do anything.If you're looking for proper rationalisation, LeeRoy might be able to give you that -- but as they're used solely for guidelines, I personally don't think the rationalisation matters (so long as the actual characters aren't as vague). I guess it should also be said that the tier system being referenced in (most) other threads was from before the new Guild, and wasn't tiered by stats and numbers in the way that this system is.All in all, I'd really hope that this isn't what's turning yourself (and possibly others) away from this tiny corner of RPG, we're a small enough group as it is =S.

I will be incredibly frank then. At least with the way RPG is doing, and has done, its tiering does turn me off from participating in it.

In regards to the numbers, if they are as loose as you say they are, why even bother utilizing them?

The clarification that it lacked the numbers in the previous guild (which I could not recall) incarnation is good to know.

The Everlasting Arena: Main Thread

Schradinger said
I see. Well, this is not the only place to RP combat in the arena, and the rules can vary significantly from thread to thread. You could even start your own and give it the rules you want, whether it be for a single fight or several.

I'm aware of both of these, but there does seem to be a significant amount drawn from this tier list by others as well and I'm not generally interested in crafting an Arena thread at the moment.

The Everlasting Arena: Main Thread

Schradinger said
Well if it helps, someone like Georges St Pierre would be in tier 2. It's very difficult trying to comprehensively answer a question that hasn't been asked, though (since there's obviously some other reason you want to know, beyond just the knowing itself).If you don't want to voice it here, for whatever reason, PM's are always an option as well.

It is very little beyond wanting to know. Particular answers significantly would have affected my relative interest in doing combat roleplay (in an Arena capacity) on RPG. However, the answer provided is exactly what I expected it would be. *shrug*

The Everlasting Arena: Main Thread

Schradinger said
That's not actually what the 2x means. If a tier 3 character can only lift 500 lbs, yet has some ability that grants him extreme physical power, he could still punch with up to 10 tons of force, regardless of his ability to lift weights. The two aren't tied together.If I'm being completely honest though, tying impact force to lifting strength isn't the best idea anyway. You can't tell me that Jean can only swing that club hard enough to generate 600 tons of force when she can fairly easily lift half that. The amount of force she'd be generating would be in the kiloton range. Professional baseball players, who aren't known for being able to lift great weights, can allegedly generate over 4 tons of force in a swing. Assuming they can lift 250 pounds with ease, that's over 32x more force than the weight they can lift, or in Jean's case, 9.6 kilotons.

That is why I posed the question specifically in reference to the absence of that kind of ability, thus the lower tiers in my original question.

Also it wasn't impact force I was necessarily referring too, very specifically it was for a punch, not an item such as a bat.

The Everlasting Arena: Main Thread

Schradinger said
Well, what would you prefer? Should we sit down and calculate the exact amount of strength required to generate X amount of force with varying levels of training? The simplicity I was referring to was the fact that none of us here are physicists. We're not here to create a completely accurate picture of the forces and effects at work in combat situations. We're here to kick ass and take names, and have fun doing it. No one here is going to sit down in the middle of the fight and work out exactly how many joules of energy their punch transfers to the target. At best, they're going to give a general idea of how hard the punch is and just go from there. Setting punching power at 2x lifting strength avoids the absurdity of someone who can lift 2,000 pounds only being able to punch that hard (especially since there are real life fighters who can punch with over a ton of force, but not lift even close to that amount), while still giving characters with less strength yet more training the ability to maintain an even playing field.The simplicity is not in the reasoning behind the number, it's in the fact that using that number makes the whole thing less complicated to understand and easier to enact.Though if you meant something else again, please feel free to elaborate.

No, it is what I expected as an answer.

I asked because I was trying to find some congruence between my combat and RPG combat. It is just entirely different philosophies. *shrug*

Lalliman said
The deadlifting world record is about 1000 pounds, but that's only for lifting it a few inches off the ground. If you look at Jean Baldwin's CS, you can see the max lifting weight section is meant to indicate how much you can lift above your head, not just off the ground. Thus why he went with 600 lbs as the tier 1 limit instead of 1000. I assume that's the thing you were wondering, as the tiers above 1 are pretty much arbitrary.As for punching force, i agree it's questionable to use 2x lifting weight for everyone, even those people with significant training. I suppose it's only a rule of thumb though, and the creators of highly trained characters should put the punching force into their CS after all.Edit: several posts were made while i was typing this, so my comments might be obsolete.

Far from obsolete. :D

The Everlasting Arena: Main Thread

Vordak said
I can't understand what exactly you'd like to know and why. Could you please explain it to me in detail?

It's fine, Schradinger already answered (unless you disagree).

I was wanting to know why the relationship between punch force and lifting strength was done the way it was. I'd rather keep the why to myself.

The Everlasting Arena: Main Thread

Schradinger said
Is it? Generally, when someone has gone to the trouble of building up the necessary muscle to lift 1 ton (I know the record is closer to half a ton, but humor me), they haven't spent much time on training their body how to fight, and therefore wouldn't be able to generate the same power to muscle ratio as someone who spent their time training to fight instead of lifting weights. Even with something as simple as punching, technique makes a huge difference in how powerful the punch is. Could the musclebound contestant punch just as hard as the one that has trained? Probably, but it isn't going to be the full 3-4 times his lifting strength due to his lack of technique. Put simply, he doesn't know how to use his muscles to achieve the best punching results, he just knows how to use them to pick things up.So the rationalization behind it is that there has to be a trade-off. You can't have one fighter who can both lift 1 ton and also employ advanced combat training in order to utilize all that muscle to its fullest advantage, simply because he would be able to steamroll any other character in that tier (unless all characters could do it, but then there's no point to unique and diverse characters).

That wasn't even what I was referring too.

"punch force was set at double to keep it simple" - that.

It does clarify my further suspicions about the list rather inadvertently. Your example doesn't even make sense as a rationalization for setting it at double the lifting strength. You actually only rationalize the point I was trying to make about the relationship with your example.