Avatar of Jannah
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    1. Jannah 12 yrs ago

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Dervish said
Although like most people I may subconsciously have bias towards one thing or another, I do try to keep an open mind about both sides of an issue. Personally, the sentiment of "it's just business" rather disgusts me and I don't think profit should ever trump civil, personal, environmental, or other ethical concerns. I have no problems with businesses being successful, but I do think there needs to be controls in place to monitor that they are keeping to ethical practices and meeting environmental criteria. I understand that in a lot of cases, it's not perfect and you can't do much to avoid a certain process from being a harmful pollutant, but you can take steps to limit it and create incentives towards a transition to less harmful practices. I can fully respect your personal situation, and I know I got very fucking lucky with the circumstances of my life. You hear all the time about how costly it is to be poor and how hard it is to actually break free of poverty. I think a lot of people don't realize that people aren't there by choice and are certainly trying to break out of that cycle. For instance, if you live in a city, housing is usually very expensive, and what little pay you make often goes to rent. If you live in the suburbs or the country, your options for transportation are limited. If you can afford a car, you have to pay way more money to upkeep the damn thing if you bought it cheaply used because it is going to fail, and so on. Back before I got my current job, I worked at a shitty, bottom barrel retail job and was trying to live in apartment with two room mates, where we split the rent three ways. I eventually had to move back home because I couldn't afford to live like that. I had to pay probably 400-800 dollars a year fixing something on my car, having health problems caused me to have quite a few sick days which you don't get paid for, and a bunch of other factors made it literally impossible to save money to afford better living conditions. It was a struggle just to break even every month, and I was glad I was able to move back with my parents, because I was able to get my life back on track there. A lot of people don't have that option, so what do they do? The world isn't a perfect place, so instead of trying to change everything at once, it's a lot easier to focus on the things that can be fixed first.


You're exactly right it's extremely hard to break free from poverty. It's why almost my entire family is poor. I have a couple wealthy aunts, but that's only because they married into wealthy families. It has turned them into complete arrogant snobs though. Anyway, I don't feel a need to pour out my entire life story here so I will just say it makes me feel a bit better when somebody finally shows sympathy. It's way too often poor people are blamed for their situation. In my case that couldn't be further from the truth since I was born into a poor family.

With that said, I suppose it can give you a bit of an idea of why I generally distrust most wealthy people, CEO's especially. Small business owners I have less issue with, however. I know most small business owners are just trying to survive too, but due to the nature of capitalism it's rare for small businesses to survive without being forced to expand. Of course that expansion happens at the expense of others.
Dervish said
And I'm not advocating the capitalism is the answer, either. Personally, I quite admire the concept of democratic socialism, and I think that currently, the Nordic countries like Norway, Denmark, and Sweden figured out what's arguably the best system, considering how they consistently rank at the top of the happiest citizens with the best quality of life.Case in point as a mark against capitalism, for a quick example; Iran's current shitty, anti-Western Islamic government was installed by the US and Britain because the moderate, actually sensible one didn't want to open up its oil reserves to exploitation, so the US and Britain more or less toppled that government and installed one that was much more willing to play ball and sell.


Well at least you're consistent. Way too many people condemn Marxism while giving capitalism a free pass for all the atrocities it's responsible for on the basis it's "just business". It's because of shit like that I fully admit to having very little trust of anybody who is wealthy. It's just natural since they have screwed me over personally too many times.

Also, as much as I like aspects of Sweden's system it does still rely on exploitation of the Third World and that is not something I can agree with.
Dervish said
I am well aware. But as they say, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. Do you think any of the revolutionaries expected to end up in a dictatorship? No. But that's what happens when you throw a select few people in absolute power. The whole Marxism thing has been tried before and inevitably ended up in a totalitarian hell, regardless of what inspired it. As Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others." The only people who are predisposed to Marxism are either desperate, poor, or don't know any better, as it's historically been a disaster every time. I can guarantee most in the developed world, very few would be willing to pay the cost to attempt to transition to that kind of government.Regardless, there's several million lost souls who would argue semantics over what you'd call the government that killed them.


But we can't overlook the fact that capitalism continues to kill people every day. It's not a one-way street. We can't pretend like Marxism is some evil demon here.
mdk said



I was talking about North America specifically there, but okay. Seriously though, I'm out of this discussion before I rage. It's really not a good idea for me to stick around here.
Anyway, I'm out of here before I rage. I have gotten shit on this site before, leading to me actually being banned from the off-topic sections.
The Nexerus said
Natives were not systematically killed. The vast majority of Native death as a result of the Columbian Exchange occurred inadvertently via the spread of disease. What's more, it's impossible to get even a rough estimate of how many people died. Native societies weren't known for their intricate bureaucratic censuses.


Yea, deliberate spread of disease. That is genocide.
The Nexerus said
That simply didn't happen. The worst the British did to Natives during peace time was forcibly relocate them to allow for settlement.Also, I think Jannah needs to be educated as to the definition of the word 'genocide'.


Which is exactly what happened. I know what the word genocide means. I'm not an idiot. Don't patronize me.
The Nexerus said
I'm sorry, but that blog post is fucking laughable. They basically just tacked every death of an Indian during the British Raj onto a tally and then said, "Ya, Britain did all of that". Do you expect the British to make Indians immortal?


Hey, people use that same logic when trying to inflate any death toll. I realize the numbers in that blog are probably inflated, but to deny colonialism was responsible for genocide is no different from Holocaust denial.
mdk said
America here. The natives didn't really benefit much. But for the rest of us, awesome.


Natives were genocided pretty badly too. I was reading recently that rewards were actually granted for their murder. I don't know how accurate that is, but given the circumstances it doesn't seem far-fetched at all. Also, I'm not solely blaming America here. Keep that in mind. Here in Canada similar shit occurred.
The Nexerus said
The British most definitely did not genocide Indians. There wasn't even any reason for them to have wanted to. The work that they gave India, that you call slavery, was better than any citizen of the Mughal Empire could've had.India was better off for European colonization.


It looks like somebody's blog, but it looks like it's still pretty well backed up with other sources. http://greatgameindia.wordpress.com/2013/01/13/indian-holocaust-under-british-raj-1-8-billion-excess-deaths-ignored-by-anglo-media/
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