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    1. MelonHead 10 yrs ago
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Mostly given up on this post by post business

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@Vordak Dude, if you can't even commit to a mess around fight like this, you really shouldn't join the GCL.

If it'll make things easier for you, I'll ditch half my weapons, but you're going to have to learn to fight characters with ranged potential, or play different characters yourself.
Well, she probably just wouldn't lie on her back.

If she got knocked on her back, her tail would just be an advantage in getting up, or it would naturally turn her to one side or the other. If she's getting hit into the ground hard enough that her tail would be damaged, she has bigger problems, probably her broken ribs.
Two quick breaths, in and out, in and out, get back on your feet you’ve still got work to do.

Aegis stood, muscles in his legs straining to lift his lithe body, mostly because of all the additional metal strapped to it. The grass was slick with blood, and his wrist ached, two pieces of evidence that suggested that despite everything he had made good with his spear thrust. All those years of training must have paid off, to pull off a strike like that in such poor circumstance, that was no small feat. The wannabe hero gave himself a metaphorical pat on the back as his eyes glanced over the stricken beast, writhing on the ground less than ten feet from him. Perhaps it would be wise to focus again, things weren’t quite over yet.

The monster was in pain, it was wounded, but it could still move. His spear might have damaged some internals, it might not have, but something of the size of the creature would not go down too easily. And if his experience had taught Aegis anything, it was that monsters always surprise you.

So, he was going to surprise it. Rather than advancing straight on the stricken creature and risking being cut in half by a swinging tail or having half his bones broken by a stray leg, he was going to give it something else to cry about. In his free hand, an orb of solid rock suddenly materialised, the celestial orb of moon to be exact. It bobbed up and down as he concentrated upon it, staring down the beast, waiting for it to regain its footing, he took one step backwards while he waited to see if it got up, but in truth, he was concentrating on the orb for a different reason. He was going to turn it into a net.

Here is a brief description of Molecular Dissipation. It is the ability to cause solid objects to lose their molecular cohesion by absorbing the energy within their atomic bonds. Thus making objects disappear.

My character didn’t have the ability to do that with his body so I added it to an external force, a projectile.


In other words, you had a dick-waving contest, seeing as how that concept is entirely pseudo-science. Your knowledge of physics was generally irrelevant. You could have just as easily have said your character can fire rounds that displace what they hit from existence, seeing as how the end result is exactly the same. You've just buttered it up to seem somehow less overpowered. For example, how did the rounds contain that much energy over such a brief period of contact? What could possibly stop such a projectile, isn't it non-interactive by its very nature? How did you avoid immediately causing your own weapon to disappear when you fired said bullet (i'm assuming it was a firearm, it could have just been your hand or something, but same logic applies)? How did you stop the bullet absorbing so much energy on route that it exploded?

I assure you all the rules you apply in lower tier fights are the same as high. Here’s what I mean. The simple rules of no Godmoding, Metagaming and Powergaming still apply. Its not like they disappear. You cant control another person character, the amount of damage they take is on them unless you have a logical claim and you cant just overpower and demean others peoples powers because you think you’re “stronger” everything is logic based still. In the case of the armor he couldn’t say his armor would just deflect it because I provided a logical counter which forced him lose faith in his armor and have to evade out of fear of taking lethal blows.


Those general rules apply, but none of the things that actually allow you to determine what actions are possible and impossible do anymore. In my mind, your character is already metagaming if he managed to put together this round apparently for the first time that can in theory penetrate any defence that anyone could conceivably concoct. Did he try and fail to pierce the armour at first? Did he know that its only weakness was the super reality warping round of doom?

Superman has no personality so of course he’s boring.


Actually, Superman's personality is one of the few things that make him interesting. His challenges mostly come from the fact that unlike Batman, he actually aspires to be Heroic. He embodies the concept of a superhero more thoroughly than Batman ever will, because he tries to be a symbol and inspire people to do good, where-as Batman only cares about punishing those who do bad. He's boring because people like to see people overcome physical adversity, they don't like their all-american heroes being confounded by moral issues, they want them to fight through the pain and beat down the British bad guy, throwing him from the tower with a 'yippy ka-ye motherfucker'

I prefer Batman was well but that has nothing to do with Clark Kent. With your logic the comic the Infinity Gauntlet would be as uninteresting as it could be, no? It is entirely possible powerful beings can have extensive back stories and lore’s that would be a pleasure to read.(Ex:Darkseid & Dormammu) Also even characters like Galactus, The Living Tribunal and Thanos have losses at the end of the day as well. Strength is not a indicator of less interesting themes.


None of those characters are heroes, you don't want to relate to them, you want to fear them or hate them and be glad they die. Its pretty common in a narrative sense to make the big-bad big-tough big-big sai.

Also, in most cases when you explore the backstory of an incredibly powerful character, you're usually experiencing their road to becoming that strong. I can't think of many enjoyable stories that involve a character powerful as fuck from the get go.

In addition lets take into account that when Superman fights opponents such as Doomsday, Darkseid and Mongul those tend to be extremely interesting bouts and those beings have vast wells of power. Its because the villians are examples of interesting high powered beings. Lets go back to Darkseid. I find his backstory to be really interesting because he like many rp characters I’ve seen grew to that strength. It was a progress. A lot of these extremely powerful RP characters I’m referring to have become stronger from assets they acquired from thread to thread in one continuing story.

Anyways, I’m about done going back and forth (at least for now). I just wanted to give an alternate view point to the high powered bashing that was going on because I think it would be good if both forms of fighting thrived here. I really mean that. A healthy debate hurts no one at the end of the day.


Those fights are great to read and watch, they're always explosive and fun spectacles, but I can't think of any time where I've been impressed by some tactical move or strategic element employed within them. And comic heroes and villains tend to be better balanced than higher tier characters actually are in Arena, they are usually far narrower in scope than the characters with answers to everything, like your reality warping bullets.

No hate, I appreciate the debate, just saying why I think there's some skill lost in higher tier battle. I can't remember exactly why this discussion started. Still, nothing breathes life into this place like me picking fights with everyone, so I thought I'd give it a new lease for a bit.

@MelonHead

Perhaps this is all just conjecture based upon our own personal experiences. For me and from what I've seen, low tier fights end more quickly on the whole. But, go back and read what I said more closely. You're missing the point I'm getting at, nay, skipping entirely over it. If you catch my drift, then mayhaps if you want to, your next post can address what I had actually been typing.


I think maybe you missed what I was saying, also. What I'm getting at is that it's all relative, superheroes shrug off blows from other superheroes, humans shrug off blows from other humans, neither fight has to end with only a very brief exchange of blows, superheroes can also manifest powers of greater lethality than weapons humans conventionally use to overcome supernaturally durability. Humans compensate with tools, if you give a human a knife to end a fight quicker, you should give the other a chain vest. All things being equal.

It's all relative.

'People tend to be just as durable as they need to be for the most satisfying cinematic or narrative experience.'

True at any power level.

<Snipped quote by MelonHead>

I'd imagine a straight shot to the jaw would take even a trained fighter down if another trained fighter of equal skill delivered it (note how I didn't mention how said opponent would handle the punch, as I'm not actively trying to reason out how one character can evade or alleviate the damage of a punch, which is a whole different matter), in a reasonable roleplay. I'm not talking about pure skill and how it can change the tide of battle. Skill is an assumed constant. That's just one scenario one that I proposed initially. The addition of armor changes the circumstances. Regardless, a blade through a joint can end a fight as quickly as a blow to the jaw. Superhuman characters tend to be able to tank what normally would be lethal otherwise, via enhanced durability or other means.


Your point was that a fight is over quicker at lower tier levels, though if you believe that because you can physically disable a human by delivering a super precise and powerful blow, that's faulty reasoning. A human being could also be disabled very quickly by punching them as hard as you can in the throat or being kicked in the bollocks, but the likelihood of a blow like that landing clean in the first few seconds of a fight between two roughly equally skilled fighters who are aware they are fighting is almost non-existent, especially in the narrative format of an arena fight.

Besides which, there are plenty of examples of non-super-humans (unless you believe Shaolin monks to be superhuman, which is perhaps a matter of debate) taking blows exactly like that without being incapacitated. The danger of a blow of that kind is that it rocks the brain in the skull, rendering the person unconscious, but it is never a sure fire knock out. In fact, it rarely is at the higher levels of combat sport, unless the fighter in question is one with a 'glass' jaw. Its notable enough (being vulnerable to that sort of strike) that there is a name for it, and therefore a high likelihood that some people are quite the opposite and can take it.

Here, wikipedia talks about it. In ordinary people, who don't fight for a living, you might be right. But Arena combat is seldom about ordinary people scrapping, and when it is, it's rarely got one person who can deliver a pin-point knock out blow to the chin against a man who can't.

Fights in the real world are often quick because of a huge skill disparity, or luck. Neither of which should really be a factor in arena fights, which are more like formalised duels in structure.
@MelonHeadYour entire demeanor is that of someone who has had bad experiences(or at least seen a few?) and you allude to that even in your previous statement but I’ll take your word for it that you haven’t had many. I will say this however. Whether you personally see a style of fighting as completely pointless due to your own experiences is entirely irrelevant. You essentially say that you do not personally take high tier bouts seriously and that’s fine. Just don’t try to justify the reason to why as it can’t be done any other way. It’s somewhat lazy and disrespectful to people who put in the effort to play and participate in stories that involve those level of feats.


It would be irrelevant if I didn't explain in a fashion you haven't actually refuted why I believe its pointless. You just told me 'actually you do need to know all that stuff to fight at such an advanced level.'

Why do you need an advanced knowledge of physics at higher power levels? Characters at this level by their very nature bend and break the laws of physics, they are naturally outside of it. Give me an example of how your advanced knowledge of physics has allowed you to gain a credible advantage in a fight at higher levels?

How do you determine the skill of two competitors at a level of combat where there is no reasonable way to ground the fight in real world logic? In the real world, people have a set number of limbs, gravity acts upon them, there are only certain moves that work, there is a limited time-frame in which they can act, react, there are restrictions on their sensory capacity. You could reward someone for effectively using cover, for blinding an opponent, for misdirection. There is no way to do these things at a level of power where human physical restrictions are completely non-existent, this is the level of power I refer to as 'shit' for determining skill in combat. Every character at this level can sense actions around them, they use magic rather than physical actions, they are not reliant on restrictive biological sensory capacity, and more importantly, they have a range of magical powers they can pull from that offers them a solution to almost every problem they can encounter with a flick of their wrist.

If you box in characters as shit because you personally do not see it possible to play them at a high skill that is entirely on you. They take skill, knowledge of physics, logic (especially) and forethought, just a type you are not currently aware of or maybe had the pleasure of being introduced to. They are not how you stated often “Shit.” Then again, if that’s what you normally see it’s not my place to tell you that’s not what you have been exposed to because that’s possible as well.


It's not just I that do this, if you were to actually look, you'd find a vast number of people are critical of characters at higher power levels when they are made the 'main character' or the 'hero'. The main example, Superman, most people consider his power-set the worst thing about him as a character. There's a good reason why Batman is widely preferred to Superman, and it's not just because he appeals to everyone's inner edge-lord. They like the fact that he is human, and out-thinks his opponents (with a little bit of plot convenience, of course.)

And I agree with them, Batman is the more interesting character because he does have to think his way through problems that Superman can lazer through, punch through, fly through, tank out, freeze, whatever.

Anyway, as I said, my opinion, but not an uncommon one either.

@MelonHead

Hey, maybe it's just me then. I do love high risk/high reward. I'd imagine that it is possible to go either way depending on how confident one player is on their ability to get a fast kill.

Typically though, I see folks playing up high tiers to be extra durable, hence longer fights. Clock a man in the jaw real good and he goes down. Watch two superheroes have an exchange, they shrug it off with perhaps but a moderate bruise to show.


Well, that's more of a fictional thing. People tend to be just as durable as they need to be for the most satisfying cinematic or narrative experience. In reality, some people are extraordinarily tough, even without armour. They carry a lot of mass and muscle and know how to roll with the punches and that's where you get twelve round boxing matches or absolute brawls in MMA matches, two trained fighters hitting as hard as they can, neither going down.

In other words, there's no particular reason why a low tier fight has to end after one or two blows. Maybe you're fighting unarmed, in which case the human body can take a lot of punishment, maybe you're fighting with weapons, in which case you should really have some armour.

@MelonHead You are biased. That you have made clear but its not something I take offense to. Usually negative views on high tier combat derive from bad past experiences. I assume you had many and its very common since its so easy to abuse them. I've played against characters who can manipulate matter. It's pretty fun under the right rules but I digress. I also enjoy hand to hand and "semi realistic" styles of fighting and I can see the pleasure in both.

While lower tiers of combat require more understanding of the physical limits of the human body it doesn't compare to the overall amount of knowledge needed to fight competently when large scales of powers are involved. Someone could be throwing Psuedo science at you in one fight and then testing your ability to counter fantasy magic in another. It is simply the more unpredictable and entertaining experience in my opinion.

I'm not trying to debate over specific examples due to myself being on a phone currently but I'd be more than happy to introduce you to some of the themes I've worked with and how they can be used to tell stories which lower powers cannot necessarily replicate. Maybe we can even have a spar later on.


Oh no, most higher tier fights I've had were pretty fun. They're completely stress free, absolutely pointless though. They always looked cool, but the characters were shit, no human can portray a near omnipotent being in a convincing fashion, almost everyone falls laughably short. Also, you don't really need to know jack-shit about physics or how physical combat actually works to write higher tier battles, in fact, you'd be wasting your time even trying to apply real world physics with such powerful characters. That usually tells in the end, as the person with the biggest dick comes out on top, rather than the person who clearly knows what they're doing and put some forethought into their moves.

I'd rather see smart play rewarded, I'd rather see fights grounded in real world logic, I'd rather see characters that are portrayed in a convincing manner and are interesting to read in the medium of combat. Higher tier fights can be pretty fun, but they're still quite often shit.

Doc, that is only the case if the two characters are piss-poorly equipped for actual combat, stupid, or carrying guns. Besides which, ordinary humans can only carry out so many actions in a short period of time, every post tends to cover just a few seconds of time, so a fight that lasts thirty seconds, relatively short by movie standards, is still covering fifteen posts of action from both sides.

If two people who knew what they were doing somehow got into a fight with chainsaws (evidently they don't know what they're doing for bringing such a shit weapon into a fight) the only thing likely is that their chainsaws collide and both break. That doesn't strike me as a fight that's going to end quickly, unless neither cares about actually living. I know some people fight like that, because they forget their characters aren't suicidal.

Unless they all are, who knows.
Rook would have grinned at the man if he wasn’t wearing a mask, in fact, he still did anyway. The man was going to get his wish, in a sense, because by-passers were starting to give the duo a wide berth, and many more were stopping to watch the show. They seemed visibly nervous, as was Quebra though he concealed it better, about the weapon Rook had hoisted onto his shoulder.

“What’s the problem, you never seen beanbag rounds before?” He ribbed the wrestler for his remarks, but his call was as much to inform the people around them that a lethal gunfight wasn’t about to ensue. He wanted them to watch, it was good for business. “Alright everyone, you better be watchin’ and listenin’, my name’s Rook, I represent the Kingdom Merc Group, tell your mates about us!”

And without further ado, he flipped the shotty off his shoulder and fired, as quick as that, a one two motion that caused one of the barrels of his weapon to fire and expunge a non-lethal projectile at wicked speed towards the wrestler’s centre of mass. It wasn’t so fast as a bullet, not even close really, but at around three hundred feet per second the impact could break a rib or put a fully-grown man on his ass. Not to mention it’d cover the scant thirty feet between them in a tenth of a second, not bad at all. The only chance the wrestler had was recognising the round was coming before Rook pulled the trigger.

Then, Rook’s demeanour shifted significantly. Gone was the almost casual stance, replaced with a dangerous focus. His left leg led as he presented the riot shield forward, holding the shotty to the right of the obstruction and leaving only the very top of his head and the bottom of his legs exposed other than that. That was about all he had to do, for now.
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