Ummm... I'd rather not. Mostly because sorting things into positive and negative is entirely... by point of view. Positive and negative are impressions. We need something that... is what it is, I think. But the only thing that keeps coming to mind is constant and chaos, and I'm not sure that is right. Any other suggestions? Or an explanation for positive and negative?

*Sigh* This is a big part of the reason I didn't wanna do the figuring right now. I don't see Positive and Negative as Impressions. There are things that add, and things that subtract. There is energy, there is dispersion. There is creation, and there is destruction. I don't want to actually break down what it is made of into the particles, because then we would end up back where we were before with the other RP, trying to classify and categorize. It's why I started with the simple concept of Light and Dark. Very vague, and something to build on AS we RP :P Besides, thinking about it now, I don't even get where one comes up with needing to place things in categories when the simple idea was Positive and Negative, not positive things, and negative thing. Just the source, the base behind. Think of it in the terms of Science, negative energy and positive energy, magnetic opposites and the like. . . . .I'm being an ass aren't I?

A little bit, but the way I've been acting, it probably doesn't hurt to over-explain things at the moment..

I realized what you might have meant after I replied. When you said positive and negative, I immediately jumped to the idea that you meant things that are "positive" as in good, and things that are "negative", as in bad. But I wasn't certain, one way or another so that is why I ended with asking for a clarification. And I certainly got one. lol I guess that probably says something about what kind of person I am, but whatever.

But, yeah. Now that I've managed to get my head wrapped around it correctly, what you have suggested is actually quite elegant. Yeah.

My dog just puked all over the place, and I've got a bunch of clean-up in front of me. Please, elaborate, while I try not to think. Or, not elaborate, but whatever is next.

*Bows* Sorry. Really I am. It happens, and I don't mean to.

So, you like the Positive and Negative idea? It keeps things simple, and it a concept that's easy to work with, I think.

Poor doggie, and poor you! I hope it didn't puke on anything important.

For our characters I think it would be interesting for them to be made of both, but each of us made more of one than the other, that way we're not identical. Does that make sense? That way we already have the base inside of us of HOW to mix the energies, but we're still relatively different. Oh, and a thought, to avoid "These are my creations, those are yours" happening between our characters, how about everything HAS to be made of both yours and my energy for them to truly work?

Eh, I know I've done the same thing. That may be part of the reason we butt heads so much. So it is an interesting experience to be on the receiving end. I don't meet many partners who are stronger willed than I am.

Yeah. I do. It is a simple idea, but there are lots of layers of complexity within it as well. When we start really digging into it, we should get some interesting things.

Nah. Surprisingly, she actually went into her crate to puke, instead of puking on the carpet. So it was easy to clean up. Smelled like shit, but you probably didn't want or need to know that...

I do like the idea that one had more than the other, so long as they do both have both. However... I do think that we want to be able to do things independently. But, since everything in the world needs to have both positive and negative to exist, and we can both weave positive and negative, I'm not sure that ownership would really be a thing. I would say, though, that the best, most complicated creations (like mortals) would require both of our inputs. While simpler things, insects, fungi, etc. can be done by just one.

I'm glad nothing important got messed. Smart doggy!

I was saying that both, yes would have both, but each of them would have more of one than the other, and the more each had would be the one that the other has less of :P So, one would be more Negative, and the other more Positive. As for what needs collaboration. . . How about anything smarter than a frog? So, they can make bugs and small animals on their own, but the larger animals, like cats and otters, need both of us. Not saying we need those animals specifically, just en example of relative size and complexity.

Also, not sure if you meant it this way, but I will take it as a complement that you say I have a stronger will :P *Teases*

Please do take it as a compliment. But that doesn't mean that I encourage further development of that particular trait, as it also sometimes goes hand-in-hand with ass-ish-ness.

I'd be willing to go with that. But do they require the aid of each other to manipulate that which is already in existence, or only to create something that has not yet existed? Also, what about everything that isn't life? Rocks and mountains and water and air? Does that take both of them as well?

I would say, they only need one another for the initial creation, or bringing into being, of a particular thing. Like, making a rock, either can do without the other, however making "Rock" would require both. Making a breeze is easy, making "Wind", not so much. I think the only exception would be the mortals themselves. After making them, with the ability to make more of themselves(Procreate) I still think it should take both of them to make something that complex. What do you think?

That sounds very reasonable to me. I am thinking, though, because they are very similar to gods, that, once the thing has been created, they can each pretty much manipulate it any way they want. Of course, the one towards which they are more inclined, positive or negative, is the manipulation that would be easier for them. But they can both do some pretty outrageous things. Not that they would, per se, because I would imagine that they are both fairly balanced individuals, but, should they need to, they could create, more than a breeze, but a tornado or hurricane.

Of course, I agree. I was just using "Breeze" to represent doing something with what has already been made :P Also, I'm not sure if you've thought about it, but I recognize my on inclinations in RPs, an in this case I feel closer to the Negative. I could be either I suppose, just letting you know which way I'm leaning.

Ultimately, I was fully prepared and willing to work with both. So, if you feel a stronger and more intrinsic pull towards the negative, by all means. I think I've probably had some deeper, more entertaining thoughts about the Positive, anyways.

So, where does that leave us? Do we have anything left to discuss, or is it time to begin?

Umns, I like doing character sheets. They help me a lot. I have a good blank one I made and use, and if you'd like to give it a glance to see if you'd like to use it I can post it here, but if not feel free to use whatever one you prefer. Just know I like a good idea what my partner's character looks like, and I disapprove of using artwork not made specifically for the character in question on moral grounds so I will not be using pics.

Yeah, that came up in conversation with T'Shara more than once. I don't usually do character sheets, because I am a strong practitioner in the belief that the best writers should be able to reveal their character through writing, but I'm also willing to accommodate on this.

Although, honestly, I have no idea how you want to do a character sheet for these characters. Because, in the beginning, they aren't... physical, are they? They are just Weavers. So, while there might be an impression of fingers and eyes, they wouldn't be, like, sitting out in empty space as humans. And I also can't really imagine my character limited to one form, either. Nor do I think I would be able to describe a personality. I'm not good at that at the best of times, because most of the time my characters take on a life of their own. On one as abstract as this, the last thing I would want to do is rope myself into a personality that can't be changed, and find out it doesn't work. So what would we be describing in the character sheets?

With a long background in D&D and the like, for me character sheets have always been a basic part of role playing for me since I rolled my first character. I guess your's and my mind work very different when it comes to our characters. I already can see him, I know him, I understand him, and have no problem telling others about him into the minutest detail. The idea with "Being stuck with a personality" is very foreign to me, because of how well I know him. I'm not making him, I'm simply knowing him, and telling others about him. Sure, there is the changing form aspect, but I know that my guy will have what he is most comfortable with, and that's what I would put in the sheet. Also, if I recall, the initial planning part when I first laid down the idea, they do not begin weaving until they themselves are given physical form. So, in my mind, the RP starts after they "become physical". I understand to a point that phrase people use so often around me, but when it comes to my own characters they take on life way before the RP starts. Since I never dictate what they are, I simply feel them, the "Taking a life of their own" phrase is very odd to me. I know I'm different. Most of the people I meet think my mind is just, strange beyond all reason, so I know that other people's minds work different than mine. However it always makes me feel bad in situations like this where my confusion makes me feel like somehow I'm looking down on how other people's minds work. Tahaan is already a living, growing entity in my mind, his feelings are flowing as easily as my own, and through his eyes I can already see what he sees. I'm sorry if this is confusing, I just wanted to give you a full and proper response.

Pope, you are seriously starting to piss me off. Maybe it is because it is late, maybe I'm just tired, but I'm ticked off enough that I'm not really sure I care what kind of an upset this is going to cause.

You are making me feel pathetic. Every time you try and tell me how your brain works you make me feel incompetent. Great, so you can remember every tiny detail about a story instantly. Congratulations, you plot out your characters so well in your head that you know what kind of cake they had for their fourteenth birthday before the story even begins. Do you have any idea how bad that makes me feel? Writing is one of the only things in which I can pride myself, but in every way I fall short ofn The Great Pope Alessandros. I can never quite match his standards.

You dive into a story set on what you want. And of course you say that you really want my input, but secretly, I bet, you already have everything worked out in your head. It is great if what I propose fits with what you already have, but of it doesn't you are going to fight tooth and nail until I get so frustrated that we go with what you want. Because that way it fits perfectly with the character you already know everything about.

Go write a book if you want to know everything. Because you can't know everything in a roleplay. It leaves no room for your partner. None at all.

I would never claim to be better than you. If I wanted to say I was better than you I would say "I'm so good, I can do this!" But I don't, because I don't think that way. I am really sorry it upsets you, I really am. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to "show that I'm better than you" because in all honestly, I have no such intentions. It's why I posed it the way I did. You asked what to put in a character sheet, so I told you what I see of my character. What I would put into a character sheet. As for matching my standards, you should see some of the people I RP with. You far exceed my baseline and interest standards and we haven't even begun RPing yet.

As for taking control of an RP. . . I'm not sure what to say other than it's not true. From my initial idea only one things has remained the same: There are two beings. Through your questioning and you want of change -

*They switched from simple light and dark to actual directed energy beings
*They no longer just have live springing up around the, they are the cause or at least tools behind it
*They went from being completely innocent to a kind of god figures
*Their purpose is well on it's way to being firmly established rather than remaining vague for us to work on during the RP

My initial idea was the extent of my planning at that point, then you began asking questions. You began directing my thinking pattern.

"Are you going to want to roleplay as the gods? Or would you rather create gods, and then roleplay as the people in the world they create? Or a combination thereof?"

You gave options, ideas that I thought you wanted to work with, so I looked the way you directed me and gave you my thoughts on the matter. after that became our tumble of disagreements. I know how gods normally work in worlds, so I thought it would be fun to make this world different. And you said that was interesting, so I thought we were doing good. You rejected my idea of other beings like ourselves, and I accepted it without hesitation. Then you posed the "Something" idea" and I went with that. . . .Do you see where I'm going with this? I can see how this seems like, near the end, that I was being stubborn on things, but that was only because through your questions the vague forms of ideas I once looked at took form and began to settle. You would keep asking what I see, and in the end, that would of course make it look like I did most of the planning. I am always open for input, I am always willing to change, but one something takes form and is solid before me. . . .

I can see the spot where we, at least to me, began butting heads. It was the point where I wanted to keep things simple, give our guys no greater motivation than to build, and you decided they needed a reason. I knew if we went any further in that we would begin seriously disagreeing, so I tried avoiding it by being as obtuse in my opinions as possible. I tried not giving myself a foothold, but you kept asking more and more what I saw, so I told you. I don't like controlling the planing, I don't WANT to be the one doing the building and planning most of the time, because it does not feel fair to me. It makes me feel like I'm overriding my partner's ideas they have not yet had or posted. I tried very hard to not reach the point where I begin solidifying things in my head, I really did. I even told you as such right near the top of this page, about the time where we had a misunderstanding about energy types. In fact I think it's the same post. *Looks* Yes, yes it is.

For my own part my initial idea of two beings coming into existence would have started our RP with nothing more than two character sheets bringing forth two beings into a void of mostly nothingness with nothing more than two exceptionally creative minds driving the world and their actions, and that was good enough for me. That gave us the opportunity to work things out in a more natural way when it comes to RPs. Your level and kind of planning is very well suited for novels and the like. I can see you creating an amazing story with only someone else as a sounding board should you want a flush of ideas to work with. I can tell you're a good writer, I really really can. And for RPs, I can see your attention to detail and slue of questioning being good as the RP goes along, but after reaching a certain point in pre-planning it's better to just do the RP and let the planning be directed by the RP itself. It's like. . . You said before you don't want your character stuck in a particular personality, your type of planning makes us stuck with a setting that may have done better being built in RP. You asked fro something simple or vague or something like that, then insisted we go above and beyond.

Just so you know I'm not upset, just a bit confused. I am a writer, and I use my skills to write my responses in RPs, but I am also one very sure that writing and RPing should have it's very defined lines between them. Writing is planned, hashed, discussed, scripted and goal oriented, and I enjoy it very much. RPing is, at the beginning, simple, formless, empty, and is built through the talents one two or more people bouncing off of each other until they find a good rhythm. That too I enjoy very much. Once my eyes see beyond a certain point in the planning of an RP, I begin seeing things really like, and want to keep, but for my partner I am willing to forsake a lot of it. I know I sound arrogant, stubborn, and a bit controlling at times, but when it comes to RPs I try my best to never reach that point.

I don't know everything in an RP, nor do I ever want to, and even if there is a picture in my head right now of the world and it's inhabitants, because we have never discussed them it is still very open for change. So too are all the tings we've discussed, however because of the discussion i have some wants and some things I may ask not be changed. Like the relationship between the gods and the people. Mostly because we seemed to agree that that would be interesting.

I just want to say one last time that I'm sorry you are bothered by my mental faculties and reiterate that I in now way see myself as better. Just because my mind works the way it does, making things easier on me, does not mean that it's better than what you can do. I think it would be amazing to be able to actually PLAN a character rather than it just springing into existence. However I like the way I find my characters, and I am in awe of people who do it differently. Also, I want to say one last time that I had no real plans going into this second try other than what I initially stated, so in essence, you built this RP through my brain. I have conceded or integrated most everything you brought up to a point, so I am sorry for the few things I put my foot down on.

I'm sorry. Last night was bad. I was hoping that taking it out on you would make me feel better. It really didn't...

I'll read that all soon, and come up with a more appropriate apology than an excuse.

No problem, I am patient. I'm not mad.

Thanks. Really. I'm sorry. If, at this point, you want to drop me, I'd understand. I've been more than a little irrational in our entire planning experience, and I can't promise that it won't happen again, with equal or greater amounts of irrationality. I really am excited for this idea, and I like it a lot. We will have to work through kinks and disagreements even still, but I think we can do it. If you still even want to. I've left you hanging for long enough that you have every reason not to.

I have no problem continuing with you, and this idea. Like I said, I'm not mad, and I'm a patient person. I can understand a lot of where you, as you call it, irrationality, comes from, and all I can say is you are 10x better than most of the people I know IRL for the simple fact that you are willing to admit it. I have dealt with your fits, and you with mine, as well as one could expect, and as long as you are willing to put up with my random bouts of stubbornness, I don't see any problem dealing with your fluctuating level of "Issue" as I like to call it. :P