Gwazi Magnum

Mentality behind having hold/control over someone else?

Kadaeux said
I think it's less a case of pleasure in influencing someone directly and more the old addage about how things are so much sweeter if you worked for them. A "satisfaction" in having earned it versus just used Google 101.

It could be the case.
But would you think there's still some element of having used someone else to get it?

Or for other situations unlike the one above do you find some people simply like exercising control over others?

Mentality behind having hold/control over someone else?

I ended up getting into a mini-debate on a facebook group.

Basically the original picture was this.

Pic

Where I basically asked "Why would you want those pics from a random girl, when you can google professional ones by models online?".
For a bit the only answers I got were those like "It's not the same" and "Just cause". With no actually argument or logical point behind it.

So this got me wondering, what is it about the human mind that get's joy/pleasure over obtaining something that you needed to have influence and control over someone to get? Even if there is a better alternative you can get without using anyone else to get it?

What about people here? Would you simply go after which ever was the best source of what you wanted, or would you go the route where you used others to get it, because something about influencing others brings you pleasure?

Suicide, Tragic or Selfish?

ishtar said Suicide is a sad thing.

I was never disagreeing with that.
I was arguing the point on that the person was stupid for committing suicide.

Sere said Logic, with a deep topic like this. It would take thousands of words to take care of all lose ends. Still with logic, the sentence can be wrong but it is still logical. Like for example: "If the sun rise from the south then it will set in the north." We know that sentence is wrong, but written in a logical format.

I should not even be responding, considering you basically ignored my entire post outside of the fact I used the word logic.
But this has so many assumptions, generalizations and conspiracies in it I feel the need to nip it in the bud.

Next time I'm going to bother replying unless the post actually relates to whatever post it is replying to.

---

I used a simple word in the English language. There is no reason to try to act philosophical and make quotes over it.
That just makes no sense, like let's see...

Birthday, "Every year on your birthday, you get a chance to start new". You used the word Birthday in your post, but me picking that out and making a quote over it added nothing to the conversation. Please refrain from doing this in the future if it isn't going to contribute.

Sere said I do not see the difference between the two. Lets say, we know that person A will die of a natural death on their 100 birthday. Is it just suicide because the person takes their life on their 20 birthday. Or, is in not suicide if they end their life when they are 99 years old? True, we do not know when a natural life comes to an end. With me, you are ending a life early.

And is ending a life early not sad to you? The fact that someone could of had a fuller life, but felt so bad about living that they wanted to die?
Also to clarify, any case where someone dies by their own hands or initiative is suicide, regardless of age.

Sere said You talk about someone that is left to die at a nursing home and see it as a crime. Hate to tell you this, it happens each and every day. The flu is a good example, as thousands of people die because of it. Death because of the flu is a natural death. If you are young, and you do have insurance you can get cured.

First off, stuff like this happening? The fact it happens is obvious.
Your acting like because I argue technically it is murder, must mean I don't think it actually happens.
Hate to tell you this, but bad shit happens in this world. Crimes happen in this world, crimes we are aware of but are not always treated as a crime legally.

Sere said If you are homeless, and you are young the flu should not kill you. True, it can get worse, and in that case they will pick up your body from under the bridge. And society will say, well you should have know better then being homeless. You should have gotten a job when we took away your housing and food stamps. You are dead, that was God's will so never question him.

Generalizations much?

A lot of people do not look at homeless people and say "You should have gotten a job". People who do that simply prove their ignorance and lack of knowledge on the topic. Do some people think this way? Yes. But you're labeling society as a whole here.

Plus, for God's will.
This argument was already argued away with Protagonist. But I'll repeat generally, God existing it or not is not a prove able fact. Many people do not worship God, or at least the same God you do. It is inaccurate to using reasoning's involving God in a non-religious issue such as suicide.

Sere said See, someone can take away your Obama Cara, your Food Stamps, and if you die. Well it was not really suicide. We as a society just wanted you dead, so you can say for some people it was assisted suicide just to get votes from people that want their taxes cut. Is that criminal, no. Is that wrong, no.

Strange, society only cares about suicide if they feel they could have gained something from the person. What does society say, he was so young. He had his whole life ahead of him. He was so smart he could have done something with his life. He was a great guy. If a drunk that is homeless ends their life in suicide. They will say, oh some homeless guy jumped from a building and caused great damaged to the property below.

First off, most of us are not american.
We are not affected by stuff like Obama Care, we have general health care that applies to all citizens.

Also, society is not a hive mind. We are not consciously going "We want ______ dead. Let's as a society cut them off from help and kill them".
Let's leave government and society conspiracy theories to kill people off separate please? They do not relate to suicide or depression.

I'm sorry that whatever you experience has caused you to look at all of society under such a light. But that is not how society functions, and treating society/the people in it as if they do isn't accurate and only slows down the rate we can deal with issues like depression and suicide because we are burning efforts fighting something that does not exist.

Suicide, Tragic or Selfish?

ishtar said
This is a deep topic, and I've read so many different opinions and approach in this thread alone. Suicide, for me, is a sad thing. It's not a matter of being tragic or selfish, but it is a sad thing, for the many reasons that has been covered the replies before me.I don't think any of us could really judge whether someone who suicide is a selfish person or not, as it depended on many factors. Although, to be honest, there is one kind of suicide case that I couldn't help but wanting to yell 'Stupid!' and 'Selfish!!' to the deceased. I saw in the news couple years back, of someone who committed suicide in his boarding house, leaving a short suicide that basically said: "I love you, xxxx."Why do I say it was stupid? The person named in the letter didn't even know that the deceased liked her. He never told her anything about it, or even hinting about liking her. If I remember correctly, the deceased still had family members (parents or siblings) at the time. For case like this one... it's definitely tragic for the family, but I can't help thinking that it's a stupid reason for suicide, keeping in mind that he never once told her about his being attracted to her. PS: He wasn't even that close to her, she only saw him as a passing acquaintance.

Having no info outside of that, it's impossible to judge or say on the situation.
Hell, never is there enough info for outsiders to make a full judgement like that. No one else has a picture clear view of their life, nor do we know what's going on inside their head. He could of had valid reasons for wanting to die, or maybe he just suffered depression too long without help and suicide is just where he ended up as a result.

As for the letter to the woman, I think you're jumping to the conclusion that the girl is his reason for death.
It's likely she wasn't the reason, but he figured "You know what, I'm going to die now. I might as well tell her how I feel, I got no other chance to afterwards".

Suicide, Tragic or Selfish?

Kadaeux said
No.Suicide is when a rational thinking being decides that their fear of being alive outweighs their fear of dying and goes for the great escape. Euthenasia is when a rational thinking being knows that the quality of life they have left is going to be so terrible and such a burden on their family that they want a peaceful dignified death. Not to become a meat-shell going through the motions or a pure sac of agony.YOUR utterly terrible mindless example is called "Criminal Neglect" or "Manslaughter"

[2]

Sere said
Is it? Is there really a difference between the two, or, is it just a play with words. How long must someone debate about their rational death that it does not become suicide but is a good death? What you call criminal neglect, is there a difference to watch someone die in a nursing home then same a prison? Both are covered by tax dollars. If I was a nurse and have the flu, one is in the nursing home and the other in a prison. If their life was so run down that my flu kills both, is it criminal neglect that they died. NO, because were do you stop. Reader, you could have had the common flu in your life, gave it to someone else and that person gave it to someone else that ended in death. Or, you could have had the flue, gave it to someone and never seen them again only for them to die some time latter. The reason I support suicide at any time, as were going to die some time in our life. I can be a 100 year old woman and be killed by a 8 year old girl with a flu. Oh, you can come up with a rational reason for my death in that way. But, if I say I want to die in say my 20's and in good health, then it is not a rational reason to die. So, the rational reason to be alive is to pay taxes?

To clarify before I start, I'm one of the people defending suicide as not being a selfish act but rather a potential end result of an illness same as Cancer, heart failure etc.
But I do still have to disagree with the logic you are using on the topic of suicide.

Suicide = Concious decision to kill yourself because you dislike life
Euthenasia = Or (while sane & concious) or a Loved one, chooses to end your life after or right before you reach a vegetable state.
Criminal Neglect = Finding someone who is mentally ill and leaving them to die.

If anything Criminal neglect is to be related to murder, not suicide cause it's not the person whose life is ending having a say in the matter.
But even then it wouldn't count as murder if they are being provided for and cared for, it is simply a sad existence.

As for your flu example. The take this one step more to show the logic your using, Sally is a 6 year old girl. She decides she doesn't want to deal with the stresses of growing up and wants to kill herself. Is it not a rational reason to want to die?

HeySeuss said
A parent in denial about illness is a special kind of fucked up torture, absolutely. On the other hand, I rate that as child abuse -- so would almost any court in a developed world nation and in the US there is considerable case law establishing it as such. You should seek outside help or even court intervention if you must in order to get treatment. Parents are not allowed to withhold treatment from their children. That is at least one of several reasons a child can seek emancipation (and should.)I can't imagine what it's like to have to stay ill because a parent goes into denial. And I've been ill enough to nearly be dead.

[2]

Not allowing medications can be a serious crime. Personally I'm iffy and unsure about the effectiveness of said medications anyways, but if it is something you and/or your sister want to take for your depression and your parents won't allow it, then it's a valid reason to get court intervention on the matter.

Advice/Opinions wanted [Tattoo]!

It's your body, your choice.

We shouldn't be making that kind of a decision for you.
If there was a tattoo you really wanted then get it, don't let what others say bring you down or discourage you.

Modern Feminism

Dark Wind said -Gay/Fag posts snip-

So basically is what you're saying to care more about the intent/usage of said words rather then the words itself?

If so I agree. But I think we're just approaching the problem differently (in the same sense we're both against sexism. You approach it as a feminist, I approach it as a humanist). Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be approaching it from a perspective of being conscious of how said words are used sometimes in harmful ways, and treating such words with caution as a result. While I more just go "Words are sounds, to worry about the sound we make with our mouth's is pointless. Let just tackle the ill meaning behind the word directly", where essentially I'd let words like Fag, Retard, Nigger etc. stick around no problem, but would have issues if they got used in insulting ways rather than in descriptive ways (or friendly in the case of nigger).

Dark Wind said Not necessarily nigger. There is a difference between using the word nigger and nigga. That's a culture thing. The word nigga is clearly used in a form of camaraderie, and anyone would know that if they've hung out with a group of black people.

The reason it's taken as racist is because, well, in black circles in inner cities there just are not a lot of white people. And when a white person says it, there is a different connotation. It's built in because a history of racism. And some white people have said it and not been called racist, probably not a majority, but there are cases.

Regardless, there's a lot of work we need to do in the racial relations department of the world.

I'll admit to being in an area majority white. There are some black people around, but not to the extent where you see groups full of just black people walking around. So I'm probably pretty alienated to the cultural use of the word's Nigger and Nigga.

I get why there's the double standard though of black people can use it fine, but white people are labeled racist. But to me that makes as much sense as when men asked to be treated equally in an area they're currently not, and then Femi-Nazi's turning around and calling him sexist because of how men treated women about 50 years ago. People's heads are just stuck in the past, and we need to get them out of the past and into the present.

Dark Wind said Not always. It's okay to be offended. It's like going somewhere and saying something racist to a black man, he says he's offended, and you say that he shouldn't be offended and he's just being sensitive. Granted, I know that's not what you're trying to say. But, that's how it comes off.

And, this is really where I'm coming from on a language confusion and language psychology stand point. People will take things personally because there are too many meanings attached to words, and when that happens, there will be people who have had so many negative experiences with specific words those words will be internalized within that person and they will lash out defensively. Rightfully so, I might add. It's not that they're being oversensitive.

Again, I understand and mostly agree with the wide range of meanings and the differences in usage. We should be tolerant of different viewpoints, but that doesn't mean different viewpoints are immune from scathing criticism.

I think this is where the thick skin/thin skin element comes into it mainly. If some guy is running around saying mindless racist comment's like that, it's better that people have the thick skin to ignore it rather than be offended by it. The racist comments are idiotic and should be ignored as such. However, I understand that it's not always that simple. But simply being offended by things isn't the best way to go, cause it means you're either being intolerant of another view point, or you're simply letting the negative spoutings of someone else get to you and get in the way of your day.

Dark Wind said No models are doing it to harm women. At least, I doubt it. I really disagree that a model should be aware of what job does what. But, this is really just a minor disagreement here. The focus should be the odd standards of beauty.

I'm not saying a model is purposely trying to sabotage women.
I'm saying they are probably aware it is harming women, but choose to keep doing it regardless cause of the benefit.

In other words, they are not trying to make it worse for women. But they are willing to make it worse for women in order to get the roles, publicity and the pay.

Dark Wind said Eh. Guys all over the place have posters of half-naked women in their rooms. Not that girls don't have posters of guys or pictures of guys. There could be a demand for more male models, sure.

But, women consume women products at great rates. They buy those fashion and beauty magazines. It kind of caters to both sexes in an interesting way.

Oh I know men do that, but it's normally just the more horny guys that do so.
A lot of the guys I hang out with aren't like that, it's simply not something they pay much focus or attention to.

I was about to say it was different for girls there, but then I re-thought it. I can list a number of them who don't, and the rest who do are in fact one's who I would say put pretty high values/priorities on sex or at least getting into a relationship for the sake of being in one.

In the end though, there are still about as many girls who will stare at boys as there are boys who stare at girls.
So there's good money to be made if you cater to those girls. You're right though in that the girl fashion business works on both sex's, but I think that still doesn't change the fact the other market also has some potential. Besides, I think the women one only get's double because culture/media is constantly trying to pressure girls to be like the latest models, we start to get rid of that and the amount of girls buying into such things should start to shrink.

Your Political Ideology

TheEvanCat said
Changed my mind. I'm a warlord now. Welfare is replaced with free AK47s and .50 caliber machine guns on the back of Toyota Hilux trucks.

Can mine come in TARDIS size?

Test

Green Pickaxe

Bullying Discussion

Hellis said
I refuse to sugar coat it. If Jorick can make such a broad statement as calling anti-bullying campaigns bulsshit and say that we coddle our children, then I can state my point of few in equally colorful words. We are arguing on equal grounds here. TO say that bullying is positive, in any sort of way, is ignorant and cynical to such a degree it's insane. Growing a thicker skin from bullying is not worth it when you carry with you childhood trauma from it, when you have your empathetic link to other people irrevocably damaged from fear of being hurt.

Fun facts:

-- It is estimated that 160,000 children miss school every day due to fear of attack or intimidation by other students.

-- Suicide rates among 10 to 14-year-olds have grown more than 50 percent over the last three decades.

There seems to of been a miss-communication. I'm not saying don't be blunt and honest with your views, the world honestly needs more people willing to be blunt/honest about these matters if we are to get anywhere. What I was saying was taking the extreme stance that only some people had, and then claiming that's what everyone here is doing isn't going to help the case. Because that in itself isn't being honest about everyone's stances/views on the matter and no real discussion can take place if people are saying one thing, but the person on the other side is claiming they're saying something else instead.