@Sanctus Spooki
That is overwhelmingly insulting. I am immensely successful in my life, not despite or because of my illness, it's just a part of who I am. My disability has nothing to do with fictional writings. How fucking dare you.
Nothing is binary. An example of a weakness would be with Eldrene; she's massively overpowered, what with her abilities in the One Power and her incredible beauty. However, she's attached to her husband/warder/king, and would do anything to protect him, or any citizen of her country; she's immensely prideful, and she's willing to trust anyone, but once betrayed, she holds grudges forever. See? That's a well balanced character- dangle a toddler in front of her and she'll gladly hand over everything she has to save him; take advantage of her trust and stab her in the back; etc. Their weaknesses don't need to be blatant, they just need to be equivalent, and they must make sense with the character. All of Jordan's characters follow the rule. I can go into detail if you'd like, I've got no plans for the evening.
I would rather everybody be able to work with each other to come to an agreement. If it comes to the point where you have to come to me, 9 times out of 10, both sides will suffer massive losses and end in a stalemate, or death on both sides. I want y'all to have complete creative control over your characters' actions in the RP.
Once again, I did not say it's ridiculous that a farm boy can defeat a Trolloc- Trollocs are big dumb animals that can easily be taken down in a lot of circumstances.
If a mundane character fights someone completely out of their league, that character is either very stupid or very unlucky. The point of OP characters having weaknesses is so that mundane characters can twist situations and circumstances to their advantage, so that they can win against unlikely odds. For example, a tiny teenage girl can take down a fully grown man by flipping him over her shoulder, since she has a much lower center of gravity than him, if she knows how to utilize that. The point of having weaknesses is to challenge yourself in situations where your character is facing imbalanced odds.
If someone runs head on into danger with no real plan, they die. I won't punish them, I'll just follow through with the logical conclusion.
(I didn't, but anyways) Rand is a super nerd in the beginning of the series. He's trying to be a good dude and follow after his dad and he's crushing hard on a girl and he's always getting into trouble with his buddies and he loves his town and he's just a sweet little innocent kid at the beginning and I love him. My exact words were: "A nerdy kid who had never held a sword in his life was able to take down a Trolloc, so I'm sure a prepared fighter could do the same." in response to "To be fair about the trollocs, one-four is a match for an average man on his toes." I was saying that Trollocs are dumb, and that Rand was a kid, so I was agreeing with @Tangletail...
Yeah, it takes on average 10 years to become Accepted, then 10 years to become an Aes Sedai. But a 40 year old Aes Sedai is still a kid, and would likely stay at the White Tower to receive further training. Even once they've obtained the shawl, they still have much to learn before they can take out Shadowspawn armies with ease. Aes Sedai, you're forgetting, are generally patient. They only stopped being patient when the Last Battle was approaching. Ezmeralda's character may have been of similar power to Nynaeve, but she did not have similar circumstances as a Wilder. Not even close, really- Nynaeve was immersed in nature and helping people, understanding the mechanics of the world itself, from a very young age, which helped her develop her sense as a Wilder. It's really interesting to read up on Jordan's notes and answers concerning Wilders and their rarity and circumstances.
I've really not. I've spoken from the WoT Companion mostly, the World of the Wheel of Time, interviews of Jordan and the big 3, conversations with Harriet, conventions, online resources being my last resort. If you want, I can cite all of my sources from now on, I usually use Turabian (it's a force of habit). My interpretations of the WoT lore may have made their way in in a limited capacity, but I can promise that I will never defy Jordan's premade world- if I ever do, you have permission to call me out on it, and to kill one of my characters. A little bit of my interpretations have been used to create a firm setting, since there are a lot of holes in the info that Jordan left us. I used everything I could find to try to fill those holes, though. I'm just doing my best to build a world that's fun to write in.
No, I don't have evidence that real people work this way, but it's a fun exercise in character creation. The reasons for my rule regarding equivalent exchange are as follows:
Pride is definitely a weakness. It's one of the main themes of both anime and the manga.
I didn't expand on it because spoilers. And his relationship with his family is anything but typical- his family values, as you put it, forced him into a specific life, and he is forced to uphold almost impossible standards. He is faced with a- great word- tenuous position every day of his life. His family values don't just make him a better person- they make his life hell.
Being a romantic is not a flaw, no. But being a romantic that wants to be with someone, but who knows that he will always be alone, that is a flaw. Especially given his family values...
Armstrong is my favorite character, hands down. I love him, and he needs at the very least a hug. He's got weaknesses, and they are as you pointed out the sort of weaknesses that most people dismiss, which makes his life even more stressful.
I felt I didn't need to restate what Tangletail already said, but I explained additional points above for your benefit. I can give more, but I don't see a point in doing that. I'm not a walking encyclopedia, I just own the different WoT encyclopedias for reference, and I have studied the lore at length, and constantly double check my info- I absolutely love the series, and being from the hometown of the author has only bolstered by love for the story. I'm not going to apologize for being an ass, because as I said, during the character creation and worldbuilding stage, I am a hardass. Once the RP gets started, I let y'all loose, to be free.
There's no need to get angry here.
@Ezmeralda
According to the Companion, women are at the youngest trained beginning at 16, and it takes on average 20 years to get to the level of Aes Sedai. According to the books, and the Thirteenth Depository's analysis of the books, the only reason Egwene/Elayne/Nynaeve's tests were pushed forward to rush their acceptance was because of their extenuating circumstances. And again, according to the World of the Wheel of Time, most Aes Sedai would take the time to study and learn more before leaving the Tower, and according to logic and common sense, especially the Yellow and Greens, given that their weaves have to deal directly with the war, and it's best not to rush into battle until you're completely prepared. So if you want to have an Aes Sedai who's 31, she would probably have a severe lack of vocabulary of weaves, or at least a lack of flexibility. According to the Companion, Aes Sedai live for like 500 years- and according to math, if the average person lives to be 100, then a 31 year old Aes Sedai is the equivalent of a six year old child. At least, that's the way I look at it.
EDIT: I apologize for any grammatical errors- my cat is being very distracting right now.
Your way of explaining how to create characters is entirely flawed, your reason for them requiring flaws is silly. I would say you enjoy that view from your condition. (Yes this is rather presumptuous of me.)
That is overwhelmingly insulting. I am immensely successful in my life, not despite or because of my illness, it's just a part of who I am. My disability has nothing to do with fictional writings. How fucking dare you.
A smart character is not necessarily a weak one. A strong one is not dumb. You create a character with depth, not by saying they must fit your preconceived notions of how people are gifted/cursed. And not by demanding they all have blatant weaknesses.
Nothing is binary. An example of a weakness would be with Eldrene; she's massively overpowered, what with her abilities in the One Power and her incredible beauty. However, she's attached to her husband/warder/king, and would do anything to protect him, or any citizen of her country; she's immensely prideful, and she's willing to trust anyone, but once betrayed, she holds grudges forever. See? That's a well balanced character- dangle a toddler in front of her and she'll gladly hand over everything she has to save him; take advantage of her trust and stab her in the back; etc. Their weaknesses don't need to be blatant, they just need to be equivalent, and they must make sense with the character. All of Jordan's characters follow the rule. I can go into detail if you'd like, I've got no plans for the evening.
If two characters engage in a fight to the death, it is up to the GM to moderate between the two if they cannot reach an agreement between themselves. Fairly.
I would rather everybody be able to work with each other to come to an agreement. If it comes to the point where you have to come to me, 9 times out of 10, both sides will suffer massive losses and end in a stalemate, or death on both sides. I want y'all to have complete creative control over your characters' actions in the RP.
Much as you said it is ridiculous to believe a farm boy can kill a Trolloc,
Once again, I did not say it's ridiculous that a farm boy can defeat a Trolloc- Trollocs are big dumb animals that can easily be taken down in a lot of circumstances.
if a mundane character ends up in a situation where they fight someone completely out of their league, yes they should die, so long as there is agreement between the players, or if it seems entirely unavoidable, as you said in your opening post: There is no plot armor. If your character suffering bugs you, well clearly you should not participate in a RP that puts your character at risk.
If a mundane character fights someone completely out of their league, that character is either very stupid or very unlucky. The point of OP characters having weaknesses is so that mundane characters can twist situations and circumstances to their advantage, so that they can win against unlikely odds. For example, a tiny teenage girl can take down a fully grown man by flipping him over her shoulder, since she has a much lower center of gravity than him, if she knows how to utilize that. The point of having weaknesses is to challenge yourself in situations where your character is facing imbalanced odds.
If someone chooses to follow the dumb heroic death trope, that is fully their choice, and the GM's choice to punish it.
If someone runs head on into danger with no real plan, they die. I won't punish them, I'll just follow through with the logical conclusion.
You did take issue with the farm boy. Rand has never struck me as a 'Nerdy kid', I welcome you to explain how he is. You phrased it the way you did for a specific reason. Canonically, Moraine, Siun Sanche, Nynaeve, Egwene Elayne and many others all attained the shawl well before turning 100, for Ezmeralda's character of a similar power to Nynaeve, it is fully reasonable that she would follow a similar progression. the woman who had been a novice for 40 years was the exception to the norm.
(I didn't, but anyways) Rand is a super nerd in the beginning of the series. He's trying to be a good dude and follow after his dad and he's crushing hard on a girl and he's always getting into trouble with his buddies and he loves his town and he's just a sweet little innocent kid at the beginning and I love him. My exact words were: "A nerdy kid who had never held a sword in his life was able to take down a Trolloc, so I'm sure a prepared fighter could do the same." in response to "To be fair about the trollocs, one-four is a match for an average man on his toes." I was saying that Trollocs are dumb, and that Rand was a kid, so I was agreeing with @Tangletail...
Yeah, it takes on average 10 years to become Accepted, then 10 years to become an Aes Sedai. But a 40 year old Aes Sedai is still a kid, and would likely stay at the White Tower to receive further training. Even once they've obtained the shawl, they still have much to learn before they can take out Shadowspawn armies with ease. Aes Sedai, you're forgetting, are generally patient. They only stopped being patient when the Last Battle was approaching. Ezmeralda's character may have been of similar power to Nynaeve, but she did not have similar circumstances as a Wilder. Not even close, really- Nynaeve was immersed in nature and helping people, understanding the mechanics of the world itself, from a very young age, which helped her develop her sense as a Wilder. It's really interesting to read up on Jordan's notes and answers concerning Wilders and their rarity and circumstances.
You have repeatedly cherry picked statements and facts, while substituting your own interpretations of the WoT lore.
I've really not. I've spoken from the WoT Companion mostly, the World of the Wheel of Time, interviews of Jordan and the big 3, conversations with Harriet, conventions, online resources being my last resort. If you want, I can cite all of my sources from now on, I usually use Turabian (it's a force of habit). My interpretations of the WoT lore may have made their way in in a limited capacity, but I can promise that I will never defy Jordan's premade world- if I ever do, you have permission to call me out on it, and to kill one of my characters. A little bit of my interpretations have been used to create a firm setting, since there are a lot of holes in the info that Jordan left us. I used everything I could find to try to fill those holes, though. I'm just doing my best to build a world that's fun to write in.
Your evidence to the law of equivalent exchange in real life in regards to actual peoples character traits is laughable (Do you really think people work this way?), an equal amount of effort doesn't equate an equal gain in skill, if you don't understand why, I'm done with this conversation. This discussion is turning ridiculous.
No, I don't have evidence that real people work this way, but it's a fun exercise in character creation. The reasons for my rule regarding equivalent exchange are as follows:
- Creating an OP character with lesser flaws than strengths makes RPing tiresome, not just for the other people in the campaign, but for the writer of that specific character. Not having weaknesses leaves you with few opportunities to face dire circumstances and fierce challenges. That lack of opportunity leaves you with a boring lack of excitement. And I like excitement.
- Creating an average character can be very rewarding- you have to figure out why their story is the one you're telling, and not their neighbor's. What happened that made them rise above their abilities, and how did they defy the normally mundane nature of their existence? An example of this would be Loial. He was entirely average, but lifted himself out of his circumstances to do relatively amazing things.
- When interacting with other characters, we need to simulate reality. And in reality, I could meet a billionaire who's got the body of The Rock, and I could very well intimidate him with my Teacher Voice™ and my music skills. An OP person must have weaknesses, or else, they don't seem real, so interactions don't seem real.
- Look at mythology. Look at Achilles, as Tangletail mentioned. Look at the Gods, the demigods, the heroes, of all faiths, cultures, fairy tales, folk stories, what have you- they all have flaws. If they didn't have flaws, there would be no point in telling their stories. And isn't that what we're doing, telling the stories of heroes?
Pride: YEs Armstrong is proud, and for good reason, in no way is this ever a failing, and he demonstrates humility many times. He's just a loud bastard about it. Which grates on some people, so perhaps his only problem is an overly grand personality.
We already know about his family, you didn't expand on it because you are fully aware how tenuous a position this is already. Bruce Wayne's weakness is his family. Armstrong has a largely typical relationship with his family. He's afraid of his sister because she's his sister, even if he could beat her, he never would. Thats the type of person he is. If anything this is a further golden point to Armstrong, his strong family values.
Romantic: Okay this is once again laughable. Being a romantic is not a flaw.
Pride is definitely a weakness. It's one of the main themes of both anime and the manga.
I didn't expand on it because spoilers. And his relationship with his family is anything but typical- his family values, as you put it, forced him into a specific life, and he is forced to uphold almost impossible standards. He is faced with a- great word- tenuous position every day of his life. His family values don't just make him a better person- they make his life hell.
Being a romantic is not a flaw, no. But being a romantic that wants to be with someone, but who knows that he will always be alone, that is a flaw. Especially given his family values...
Armstrong is my favorite character, hands down. I love him, and he needs at the very least a hug. He's got weaknesses, and they are as you pointed out the sort of weaknesses that most people dismiss, which makes his life even more stressful.
The fact that Aviendha is unable to answer any of these points on her own further emphasizes my point that she really doesn't know what she's doing, her professed knowledge of the WoT is a joke, propped up by the claim to live close by to the widow of a dead man. Almost all of her points have been fallacious and she repeatedly contradicts herself throughout the thread. She isn't even able to apologize for being an ass, without being an ass. This is her thread though, so I'll vacate the thread. Enjoy the RP, and I honestly hope it does better than I'm expecting.
I felt I didn't need to restate what Tangletail already said, but I explained additional points above for your benefit. I can give more, but I don't see a point in doing that. I'm not a walking encyclopedia, I just own the different WoT encyclopedias for reference, and I have studied the lore at length, and constantly double check my info- I absolutely love the series, and being from the hometown of the author has only bolstered by love for the story. I'm not going to apologize for being an ass, because as I said, during the character creation and worldbuilding stage, I am a hardass. Once the RP gets started, I let y'all loose, to be free.
There's no need to get angry here.
@Ezmeralda
My reason for her being so young was because she was brought to the tower pretty young and 20 years is a long time, if you behave and are on top of things it should be possible, since the only requirements are learning your weaves and braving the trials through Novice to Aes Seda. Age wasn't really a factor. Her power also isn't nearly as strong as Nyneave's. She is weaker than Egwene and Elayne. Her power level istelf wasn't the issue.
According to the Companion, women are at the youngest trained beginning at 16, and it takes on average 20 years to get to the level of Aes Sedai. According to the books, and the Thirteenth Depository's analysis of the books, the only reason Egwene/Elayne/Nynaeve's tests were pushed forward to rush their acceptance was because of their extenuating circumstances. And again, according to the World of the Wheel of Time, most Aes Sedai would take the time to study and learn more before leaving the Tower, and according to logic and common sense, especially the Yellow and Greens, given that their weaves have to deal directly with the war, and it's best not to rush into battle until you're completely prepared. So if you want to have an Aes Sedai who's 31, she would probably have a severe lack of vocabulary of weaves, or at least a lack of flexibility. According to the Companion, Aes Sedai live for like 500 years- and according to math, if the average person lives to be 100, then a 31 year old Aes Sedai is the equivalent of a six year old child. At least, that's the way I look at it.
EDIT: I apologize for any grammatical errors- my cat is being very distracting right now.
