[OOC] Black Mountain Tournament: Iolanthe vs Sigurd

[MelonHead]

But you don't believe anything makes sense if it hinders your chances of victory.

@Chimera

How delightfully snide, regardless it seems like you're not accepting the ret-con. In which case, the ruling needs to take into account a different part of the body was struck at, I'm interested to see Pollen's interpretation.

[Chimera]

How terribly dreary. You fight like a criminal defense lawyer.

[MelonHead]

How terribly dreary. You fight like a criminal defense lawyer.

@Chimera

That has been said before, no doubt it will be again. If you don't hate me by the end of this fight, I'd like to fight you again in unranked so I can prove that I'm not just generally a dick, tournament and ranked play brings out the worst in me. If I wasn't competitive, I wouldn't bother with ranked fighting at all.

For the record though, for the love of god why didn't you just have your character step backwards? It was such an easy solution, definitely less messy than all this pivoting/kneeling/ducking stuff you're doing instead that makes it incredibly hard to visualise.

[Drifting Pollen]

I made my entire post under the pretense that Sigurd's attack was aiming at Iolanthe's right leg... though either way, the shield's fall should still protect Iolanthe's left leg.

@Chimera

Yes. Hopefully this will not be a problem.

@MelonHead Your turn to post, when you're ready.

[MelonHead]

OK officially retconning right leg strike to left leg strike. Have work today post will be up this evening.

[Chimera]

Alright, so... @Drifting Pollen, I'm definitely going to need your help and verdict here.

I'd like to see the effects of Iolanthe's attacks written in Melon's post, but rather he's completely ignored them all. Not even a depict of them having missed, nor mention whatsoever... this frustrates me.

Firstly, given the new aim of his sword, which slides it further under the shield than the initial typo would have, I believe the threat of Iolanthe's gladius will no longer be minor. He did not slow or mention halt in his hand's movements, even though his character would've seen the gladius. Also it is stated that his longsword wouldn't budge as much, however I think this is wrong - the weight and force from such an attack at the off-angle of his sweep should indeed overpower his wrist with ease.

Secondly, the series of stabs aimed at Sigurd's legs were also completely ignored. I'm 100% sure one or two of these stabs will land before Sigurd can finish swinging that shield of his. I think this because Melon shouldn't be allowed to just ignore my attacks, his character isn't dodging them what-so-ever, they are not super slow... and above all else, he's leaning towards the trajectory of each swing.

I need to go to work, I'll check back in during my break, but I'll only be able to respond after midnight.

[Drifting Pollen]

Alright, so... @Drifting Pollen, I'm definitely going to need your help and verdict here.

I'd like to see the effects of Iolanthe's attacks written in Melon's post, but rather he's completely ignored them all. Not even a depict of them having missed, nor mention whatsoever... this frustrates me.

@Chimera

Re-read the post. It wasn't particularly obvious, but both of Iolanthe's attacks were mentioned, with a response described for one and effects described for the other.

His longsword glanced off heavy armour, the rebound and subsequent carrying of his arm off to his right clearing him from the sphere of influence of the swiftly descending shield.

@MelonHead

and

Fortunately pushing closer to his foe in this fashion would make manipulating her spear more difficult, the edge may begin to burn through his tougher armour such as the iron shin plates, but no immediate wound was suffered on his advance.

@MelonHead

There ya go.

[MelonHead]

Also, for the record, I'm unsure how your character is really seeing anything she's doing or Sigurd's doing, as there's a shield directly in front of her face, but ya'know.

[Chimera]

I was furious at first, assuming you stopped giving a rats ass about our battle, @MelonHead, cause even the end of the post didn't have a period or proper grammar. I figure now it must've been an issue with the page loading, because I don't remember seeing a second paragraph at all during my first read-through. That's my bad, that fixes half of my issue with the spear.

There's no mention of greaves in Sigurd's profile, but I assume that's an addition to his 'leggings'? In both situations, if he had pressured his foot closer, Iolanthe's spear would be cutting lower, the blade would be roughly at his ankle, where she had already marked him bloody, (proof through trial and error that where she's attacking, there wouldn't be armour).

The longsword glanced off heavy armour, this is a bit vague. Is this a mention to the plateskirt being struck first, or the shield's edge? After which, I still need clarification on a few things; The issue of Sigurd's wrist strength, which I think would be overpowered by the force and weight of Iolanthe's shield strike - as well, there was still no mention of Iolanthe's Gladius, while Sigurd's hand continued to adjust from one side of the hoplon to the other. If the gladius didn't make it in time, the shield wouldn't have blocked an attack, meaning it either swung too early, or it did indeed land. If the gladius arrived too early, Sigurd's sword might also clash with that blade, before being drawn out from under the shield.

~ The above is my half of the OOC's bitching, @Drifting Pollen.

On another note. I was too busy to say anything last night, and this morning I was also busy, and too annoyed to say: No I don't hate you, Melon, but I'll be frank... your nit-picking can get annoying. It's the reason I'm making sure to give you a hard time right now. I could've easily taken tweezers to some of your previous posts, but I didn't feel that desperate before. It's only annoying when someone is trying to dismiss attacks that are pretty simple. (Example; when Iolanthe was merely lowering her arm.) Which seems like an attempt to distract, or win petty points.

[MelonHead]

Disarming someone by hitting the end of their sword is actually pretty difficult, you have to hit pretty hard and fast at the end near the hand otherwise the sword just flexes and absorbs the momentum, which is what I said would probably happen. To answer your question, a shield is not armour, armour is armour. My posts tend to be vague on -certain- issues because I'm posting from my character's perspective, who unlike yours does not have superhuman observation. Noticing what the spear off to his left is doing or the tip of a gladius sticking out of a shield are not things that are easy to do in a split second confrontation, at least for an ordinary human.

Also, your attacks are anything but simple. You still never really clarified exactly how Iolanthe was holding the shield out towards Sigurd in the first place, but presumebly unless she was holding the shield out straight when she dropped it with the consequence of leaving herself completely open, I'd assume she'd return to an ordinary shield on arm holding position (upper arm vertical, lower arm horizontal) which would consequently reduce her overall range (unless she had extraordinarily long arms) to about one and a half feet as the shield dropped down. The longsword is three feet long, so in my estimation it would not hit the sword close to Sigurd. This is just my evaluation of the move, I can't know for sure because certain key details were emitted, which in my defence means I can interpret it however the hell I want.

Sigurd's sword -may- have hit the gladius on the way across if she managed to move the shield into position. However, that wouldn't do very much as I mentioned the tip of a sword has a lot of give. It would just flex and the heavier longsword with actual rightward momentum would slap into its side, her hand would twist slightly and the longsword would keep going. However, I don't really know for certain how it would happen, so I just accepted the end result would be the same, Sigurd's sword off to the right. He's not been able to immediately attack with it, so by extension I'd say your plan was still semi-successful, he's had to manoeuvre it back into position for a turn.

Finally with the spear I assumed Sigurd's sudden dash forward would put him within its effective range, so the edge would be against a new part of his leg but would have to begin the burning process again. Sigurd's armour is pretty poorly described, though I would never have it outright block a blow like your character's has done twice now, so it doesn't really matter much. I could try and give a more detailed description, but predominantly there's iron plates on vital spots, aka chest, shins and groin. Everything else is fur and leather.

[MelonHead]

Once again, I don't own swords nor do sword fighting, strictly theoretical. When I made the decision that it was unlikely the sword would fly out of Sigurd's hand I was referencing a video I watched by a HEMA teacher that I trust (He follows a lot of principles I've learned in studying History at degree level.)

If you want to see it, it's 11.20 to 12 mins on this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y5fmah5pIg

[Chimera]

Well I guess I'm just a badass bitch, because I have a real longsword and you don't, Mr.Thinks girls don't know how swords work.

A sword fighter doesn't have much strength to give the very tip of their sword, only the momentum carried can really empower the full extent of a blade. I figured about half a foot of the sword was under the shield, and if it got caught between the shield and the ground; (highly likely, given how low the attacks and blocks were) Sigurd would feel a shot go up his arm, and he'd need to yank his sword out. It's not mortally dangerous or anything, but how you described its effects, I see it doing more than just stall for a split second. I never meant to disarm him, however the strike has enough weight and pincered force to bend the average sword, and he'd feel that more than you described.

I think if the longsword struck the gladius, it'd stall for longer. The momentum of Sigurd's swing would've been lost when he decided to try and slap dat fine ass Iolanthe possesses. However the 'I can interpret it however I want' rebuttal about key parts being omitted... if that's true, then I'm sure the gladius stabbed in to Sigurd's wrist, that was a key attack, it's effects omitted from your post.

For Sigurd's punch to be effective, his shin should be facing Iolanthe, and not the blade of Hyperion, which is coming towards him on his left side. The fact that her sword pierced through his boot and cut him already means that armour should not suddenly appear there to conveniently protect him the second time. It was mentioned in Iolanthe's post, that she angled her spear so that if he progressed, it'd cut his ankle, but if he stepped back far, it'd cut his knee, even further and she'd be spanking him like the naughty boy he's been.

Again we're probably going to have to wait for @Drifting Pollen's verdict.

[MelonHead]

'Well I guess I'm just a badass bitch, because I have a real longsword and you don't, Mr.Thinks girls don't know how swords work.'

'I don't teach anyone, certainly not close combat with swords and spears, which I've admitted in the past to being poor with (due to a complete lack of real world experience.)'
'Also, feel free to look anything I say up, if you find someone disproving me let me know, I'm only running on what I've heard HEMA experts say and what I've read in historical sources. I'm a modern history student predominantly, medieval and ancient histories are a hobby, not my degree.'
'However, I don't really know for certain how it would happen'
'Once again, I don't own swords nor do sword fighting, strictly theoretical.'

Sounds like you're accusing me of sexism and elitism in one sentence, nice.

1. The sword was already on its way out, it glanced off the armour. If it did not glance off the armour, your character would have been injured in some fashion. All armour is designed to deflect momentum, if it had absorbed it your character would be injured, she was not.

2. Your character probably shouldn't have even been able to see Sigurd's movements, as her own shield should be blocking her view. That aside, Sigurd's longsword would be at most a foot under the shield as it dropped. Assuming the sword was somehow so slow it was completely outpaced by the shield, it would still only logically be caught on the way out.

3. You can interpret anything I haven't explicitly stated as you wish, however I've been clear in the way I've launched my attacks, carried out movements and held the shield. You had not. You've simply stated the intent without properly explaining the method. For example, how the shield was held to cover three feet, and how it was subsequently dropped to protect herself.

4. Sigurd is not crouching, he made the slash at her upper thigh as your character dropped, her stance has no bearing on Sigurd. His sword would not touch the ground, he was also striking at a downwards angle anyway so the shield dropping into it would hardly be that counter-active to the move he originally made.

5. If by some immense stroke of luck Sigurd's longsword hit the gladius of dubious location it would make relatively little difference.

6. This is true, but the shin armour would still have an edge to cut through and assorted bindings, all of which can resist the heat effect of your character's spear because her actions should have realistically cut off all momentum from the blow. When talking about fractions of a second I would not expect T3 magic effects to be instantaneously effective. Furthermore, the chance that after Sigurd moved forward Hyperion still managed to make contact in the exact same spot it did before when your character realistically has no fine control over it is ludicrous. Her first attack on the area was woefully ineffective (Pollen ruled it would have very little effect) but it was still more effective than this subsequent attack, where literally no momentum could have been gathered and her arm had just been injured by the longsword. I'm not even sure how your character is still using her giant greatsword at such short range with her shield directly in front of her face, but let's just put it down to magical observation, the ultimate crutch of Arena fighters.

I suppose we'll just have to wait for Pollen's interpretation.

[Drifting Pollen]

Okay...

Lots of tricky details involved here, but not all of them are relevant. You both seem to agree it's unlikely Sigurd would be disarmed. There's some debate over what delays his sword and how it delays it, but though being hit by a shield and/or gladius would certainly disrupt an attack, all Sigurd's doing right now is pulling it back, trying to get it out of the way. How jarring it feels doesn't really matter, he should be able to move his sword back regardless.

Second thing was the spear strikes, which Sigurd basically let himself tank. However, we've already established that the angle and distance at which Iolanthe is attacking does not allow for a great deal of hitting power. I can imagine Sigurd would receive some cuts and burns, even with his protection, and it would have been nice to have him go into more detail on the effects... but essentially, such wounds are not going to stop him from advancing and attacking with his shield, and so there's nothing technically invalid about his actions. We can assume Sigurd's legs are injured, but even a more conservative estimate of his protective gear should be enough to prevent truly debilitating damage from the attack described.

Essentially, there are certainly some valid complaints to be made about Melon's post, but nothing so major that an edit is really needed. Better to move on to Iolanthe for now.

*braces self for inevitable argument about shields*

[MelonHead]

I did say 'no immediate wounds' in regards to the spear attack, which would assume that wounds would be suffered eventually. My post only covered a very short period of time (maybe a second at most) and the burning effect seems to be a sustained contact thing (particularly in these circumstances) so taking damage in that time frame seemed unrealistic.

[Drifting Pollen]

I did say 'no immediate wounds' in regards to the spear attack, which would assume that wounds would be suffered eventually. My post only covered a very short period of time (maybe a second at most) and the burning effect seems to be a sustained contact thing (particularly in these circumstances) so taking damage in that time frame seemed unrealistic.

@MelonHead

Pretty much what I figured. He might get hurt, but he wouldn't be hurt hard or fast enough to interrupt his other actions.

[Chimera]

There was some use to this argument, I wanted to establish some things for sure, before making my next post. At least I know my own complaints weren't in vain.

As for the shield? Well it wasn't right in front of Iolanthe at the beginning, was it? That's all that was necessary to make that last post of hers viable. As for the current... you shouldn't assume she'd just sit there and hold it in front of her face the whole time, while sitting in place. Fluidity of movements is important!

Ahhh, to quote yourself when you know you were being nice, but never the parts where you were mean and condescending. Solid tactic! I'd use it myself, if I wasn't so comfortable being a total bitch when mutual respect demanded it of me.

[Doc Doctor]

Now the follow up, did she think she could lift herself in armour so quickly as to avoid Sigurd’s forward momentum? Not a chance. The point of his longsword was fitting into place to the left of his shield as it made heavy contact with Iolanthe’s hoplon, depriving her of her precious guard. His right foot shot forward as her left leg tried to propel itself backwards, his foot dropping down, and without any upsets, just in time to catch his enemy’s own. It was almost childish to try to trample on someone’s foot in battle, but it could also be of extreme usefulness.

@MelonHead

That's my signature move...


From: http://www.roleplayerguild.com/topics/89698-doc-doctor-vs-elgainsborough/ic

As the knight readied his shield, Zande took a sudden step forwards before attacking, aiming to plant his right foot upon the knight's left.

@Doc Doctor

From: http://www.roleplayerguild.com/topics/90819-black-mountain-tourney-guzman-vs-gonad/ic

As this occurred Gonad would take another step forwards, aiming to plant his left boot directly atop the King's right whilst trying to peel his shield away. They would be virtually face to face if this happened.

@Doc Doctor

From: http://www.roleplayerguild.com/topics/87958-creeping-death-shiden-vs-doc/ic

Whilst the man was in the midst of finishing the word "traveled", Zande would clench his raised left fist and step forwards. But this seemingly simple action was of far greater significance than the simple threat of a punch. You see, when the wildman stepped forth he'd have done so with the intent to firmly plant his left foot upon Nicoli's left and bear down...

@Doc Doctor

From: http://www.roleplayerguild.com/topics/89698-doc-doctor-vs-elgainsborough/ic?page=2

He'd step with the knight, left foot seeking to trap the right. If Zachary again dodged, the tribesman would keep relentlessly stomping after his feet, as if they were engaged in a demented, rapid tango.

@Doc Doctor

[MelonHead]

Not a bad move in a grapple situation, though it only works if your opponent is scared of grappling.

Try it on me and you'll get a pommel in your face ;D

[Doc Doctor]

Knuckle sandwiches are tastier than pommels.