Dervish

The Elder Scrolls: Vengeance of the Deep

Alrighty! Shon review time!

(Insert fanfare trumpet)

I actually quite like this submission, and it's clear care and craft went into it, so so far so good!

I do rather like that despite the troubles of his youth, he found a pretty normal and happy life in Falkreath, which I think helps establish him as a pretty well adjusted individual. The Dark Brotherhood angle was interesting, although I do have a couple things I wouldn't mind having clarified.

Shamoun has an understandable interest in finding out who the Brotherhood is is quite fine and rather compelling, but why would they seek him out and offer him the ultimatum? What had he stumbled across that would make him known to them and considered a threat? He was obviously rather discrete about what happened that night they killed the carriage driver, and I don't think they'd run the risk of being discovered by someone inquiring about a poison's alchemy reagents. If you could kind of go into more of the "why" they decided to confront him, that would be great. If mean, even if it's something like he interfered with a contract unintentionally, that would be fine, or like in Skyrim, took it upon himself.

You also kind of glazed over his involvement with the Dark Brotherhood, which is unfortunate given how important it is to his history. What kinds of jobs did he take, what was his relationship with the other guild members? Notable successes and failures? It would be good to know exactly what he did with them and how it came to shape him so much. I mean, the build up from him trying to find them was a lot more detailed than what he actually did for them. Also, who sent him the letter and how did they get it off in time? The Dark Brotherhood sanctuary was raided and destroyed in a sudden raid by the Praetorians. Would it not make more sense for rumour to have reached him? He couldn't have returned to the sanctuary since it was occupied afterwards by the Praetorians.

I quite like that you elaborated more on the partnership Skyrim and Hammerfell entered into after the Siege of Storms, which I'm surprised you didn't mention. How was Shamoun effected by the Auroras? Was he put under its thrall and discovering a loyalty of sorts to the Emperor? Did he notice the disappearances of people in the communities he lived in during that time period? How did he feel when the spell was broken? It was a big world changing event that lead to the Empire succeeding control of Skyrim to Rogvir the Ironheart, which would have changed the politics in Skyrim quite a bit.

And most importantly now is how the dwemer invasion has effected Shamoun? Keep in mind Hammerfell is completely occupied and its armies were mostly crushed with an insurgency propping up resistance against the occupiers, and most of the surviving noble families are in hiding or swearing fealty to the occupiers. If I read that last paragraph right, he's back in Skyrim again, which is where the game will end up eventually, but not for some time. He should be in Hammerfell at this point, and what's going on in Skyrim right now is kind of being kept hush hush until the group arrives.

If you could clear all that up, I'd appreciate it!

Problems with partners...

@ Jorick

I didn't mean like, interviewing them or something. "Where do you see yourself in this RP in 5 months?" "What would you describe as your greatest weakness?" "Do these business trousers make me look fat?"

I meant more along the lines of their character sheet, say what you have to say about the sheet or if you notice that there's something particularly off about them that you're concerned about. No use beating around the bush. I never ask somebody about any of the stuff you're talking about, because that just sounds silly. I judge someone entirely off their character sheet and how just talking to them turns out. So far it's worked out rather fine, I don't need to play 20 Questions with them and decide if they're decent enough to get along with. Like you said, you don't just outright ask somebody about what they think they'd do or whatever, you just play it by ear and trust your gut. If something sets up a red flag, then you should be worried. If not, see where it goes if they make a good sheet. Easy peasy.

Sweden to Prohibit Criticism of Immigration Policies and Government Officials.

Brovo said
Very normal for Sweden honestly.EDITThough, I smell fishy journalism...

I'm more inclined to lean towards fishy journalism.

There's quite a lot of news articles in this internet age that either don't fact check or misquote something, deliberately or by mistake, and make something come across as way out of context. Provoking people's sensibilities is a great way to generate traffic.

Mass Effect: Nova

I think I'll start working on a response for our end and NOT do it as a collab.

I think a big reason this game's slowed way the hell down is because we're getting more and more into big collabs, let's try just doing some individual posts for a bit and see if that helps pick things up?

Problems with partners...

I don't know if I misread or misinterpreted what you wrote, I was simply going off of what it sounded like, which was "Make up reason to reject somebody, ask them back a few days later to see how they handle rejection." What you're bringing up now sounds more in line of regular ol' GMing stuff, which I'm personally A-okay with.

Because I never got the hang of multi-quoting a message, I'm just going to italicize your points because I'm lazy. <3

... Uh... The rejection -is- the test. If they're willing to fix something that is "wrong" with their sheet, after I rejected them, so they can be accepted, and they do that, and they're willing to wait a couple days for a response, then they pass the test.

...This is really simple. Like... This is GM 101 stuff right here. Rejecting someone's CS because it doesn't meet standards and offering a critique that they can learn from, resubmit, and become accepted. This is... Very normal. I honestly don't understand why you think it's dickish. Do you just reject people and never, ever let them try again?... Is this somehow efficient to you? I mean, obviously, I've got to be doing something right, when my RP's consistently last for months or even years... It's not like I'm telling them that they're horrible human beings, I'm critiquing a fictional character.

Well, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. If someone doesn't meet the standards you have set out or has some kind of glaring personality flaw that is going to drive you or somebody else insane, then by all means turn them away. If someone's willing to work with you and edit their sheet as requested, then I don't see a problem with giving them multiple chances to work things out (unless they really aren't getting it or are just shoe horning in throw away lines in hopes that justifies something, then nope). I'd say about 3/4 of the people who apply to my games usually have to revise their sheets and resubmit it. I never reject somebody outright unless their sheet is ABSOLUTELY abysmal or they have a totally shit attitude out the gate, like a major Sue for example. I had somebody apply to my Elder Scrolls RP wanting to be a half werewolf/ half dragon hybrid. I had another who wanted to have an immortal character in the sense of Kenny from South Park. Neither had any references to any of the big events that happened in the world in their sheets, anywhere.

But once again, as far as actually critiquing a character sheet goes, I pretty much do what you're saying.

It's a test. A very simple to pass test. That works in ironing out people who throw up five minute characters and have no real intention to stay, or people who get really defensive about their characters.

This isn't being a dick. This is common sense.

...That... Would defeat the purpose of the test... You're assuming people will always be truthful. They're not. At all. If they were, then why the hell is the player drop rate in RP's so absolutely obscene?

If somebody posted a five-minute character, it's pretty obvious from the get-go. Those are the kinds of people you say outright it's not what you're looking for and invite them to try again, and give them hard, but fair critique.

You can't assume anyone's anything over the internet, but I have a fairly decent judge of character based on how somebody writes and responding back and forth a few times. So far, I've only really been bit in the ass by one particular player I accepted in the game because they kind of went Dr. Jakyll/ Mr. Hyde on me months after they joined, and that was over IM. There's nothing you can really do about those cases.

As for why the drop-out rate of RPs is insanely high, it's a bunch of reasons that could be a thread all of it's own. But if we're talking strictly about characters here, usually it's characters that are accepted because the GM has a low bar of entry or isn't willing to enforce it, players who have short attention spans and take five minutes to write up a sheet and quit as soon as a game starts to slow down, and so on so forth. Basically, the GM has to try and keep things moving and players interested and do their best to accept players who put in the effort to keep a game running. I accept I'll have drop outs over the course of the first few weeks or months, but it's like polishing a gemstone. What you're left with, after you clear away the impurities, is beautiful.

I'm just saying from one successful GM to another that I don't really see a point in doing that little test of yours when there's a bunch of other methods I've done and have seen done that works just fine. Once again, this part of your post,

2) Reject some people for absolutely no reason (I can make up bullshit as well as the next guy) and wait 3-4 days to get back to that person. This tends to vaporize 50% of the problem players right there, since most of the impatient ones also tend to have fragile egos. Bonus points in that it also works against people who cannot stand criticism, which if you have a long lasting RP, will invariable occur to everyone at least once.

Made it sound like the sheet's totally fine and the person seems like they're good. So why make up a reason to reject them? Why not just say you need some time to go over the sheet? I mean, I can see why you do it, but as I mentioned, there's plenty of other ways to judge someone's personality that have worked rather well for me, and testing how somebody handles rejection's only a part of the grand scheme of what's going to make a player a good player. You can honestly do the same thing by picking apart a character sheet and point out what's wrong with it and request they make those changes. If they do without being confrontational about it and they get it to a point where you and the other GMs are happy, then it pretty much does the same thing as "reject them and see what happens", you know?

...Critiquing someone's fictional character to see if they will get pissed off about it and rage quit, or refuse to fix it, or if they'll just go and fix it?

Seriously? You'd take offense to someone throwing a critique out about your fictional character at random?... Really?... Um... I don't think you and I will see eye to eye on this if that's true.

On the contrary, I want critique on my characters when I apply. It makes me a better writer and helps me trim the fat off of the sheets I submit. If someone picks a sheet I worked hard on apart, sure it stings at first, but if a person's being fair about it, I actually prefer it, especially if the person isn't being an asshole about the whole thing. I like to know where I can approve, and I'd much rather have a character that fits in the story than one I think does but is clashing in some way somebody was too polite to tell me.

I can't though. Dervish I'm not a mind reader, I can't automatically know how "dedicated" you are. You may even sincerely believe that you're this fantastic role player or whatever, but for all I know, you create a billion Mary Sues and have them make incestuous love to each other. Especially since the posting history on this site at the moment is limited.

Now, to clarify, no, I'm not saying that's what you do. I'm sure you're a great role player, but I'd rather you not go about telling me that my methods are a cruel and unusual punishment and that I'm being a dick and all that... Because I offered a critique on a person's character sheet at random to see if they would flip out or not.

... Character sheet. Not even of the person in question, their fictional, not-real character, in as non-offensive a manner as possible.

Anyway, I'm sorry that all it would take for you to leave my RP is my telling you that I was testing your reaction to being rejected and offering you reasons why you were, even if I didn't really care about those reasons, because I wanted to see who you were as a person.

I kind of used "you" in a general catch all rhetorical way, not necessarily you in particular, Brovo. Should have specified or changed my wording, so apologies.

You must have been replying before I edited my post, I put in a little paragraph at the end saying I wasn't meaning that to be an attack on you for one of your many choices of a GM, just one choice I took an issue with, so don't worry; I still think you're fine and a person I quite like and your games obviously wouldn't last as long as they have if you weren't a good GM and a fun person, so please don't take all that as an attack on you. I just put swear words in as garnish a lot, not to make my posts bile.

What you wrote in that first post that kind of started all of this off just made it come across that you were more going after what the person was like rather than the content of their character sheet, the point I am hopefully illustrating in this particular reply is that I find you can get the exact same result in picking apart somebody's sheet in a fair manner, as well as replying to any questions they have and having a few back and forth exchanges via PM or even in the OOC. If someone's got some personality flaws that just won't work out, they usually show up pretty quickly. As I said, I've had only one person I had an issue with after I accepted them on a personal level. I've had some players do things in the game that I had to address as a GM to resolve and/ or have them change, and they complied without an issue.

But yeah, I'd hope that if you (once again, the rhetorical any GM) wanted to see what I was like as a person (rhetorical any person who has the perspective of an applicant), I'd hope that simply asking questions of what I should address in a flawed character sheet and asking for advice while I was working on it would be enough for you to take a chance on accepting the character.

Honestly, the way you wrote your point made it sound like you'd be doing that even if you had absolutely no problems with the character submission. Since there seems to be some confusion, do you mean if a sheet wasn't up to snuff and you waited a few days before asking a person to submit again? I am kind of getting that that's what you were meaning to say, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'd personally just go over the sheet, say what was wrong, and say if they want to resubmit the sheet with the requested issue addressing then I'd be more than happy to let them try again.

Problems with partners...

Crimson Flame said
The Password thing is a terrible idea. GMs should be able to tell if someone is following the rules by reading their CSs, and CS writers don't want to type some silly phrase just to prove they can do something simple...So basically we're all competing for spots. :/ From my experience, this always comes down to, "what kinds of characters the GMs like." Because the people that are willing to be judged like that are all good writers who have read the rules and know what's expected. So, what do you go on? :/I really don't want to be competing against people for a spot in an RP. :/

You sound like you're saying you prefer a "reserve slot" kind of game, which has its own problems and I think leads to a higher chance of RP death.

Let's say a game has 8 slots and 8 people reserve, anyone else who didn't make it in time is out of luck. Let's say 4 of those players whip something together really quickly and get accepted because the GM is kind of a softie who is just happy to have interest in the game, and doesn't like being the person to make hard criticisms. A few weeks into the game, three of those four players drop out, and the game starts to slow down, and then other players start to get bored and leave, or take the exodus as a sign.

I see this all the damn time, and it's really kind of sad. "Reserving" a slot usually screws people who legitimately want to be there out of the game, and what if somebody's in a different time zone and they were sleeping and missed it all? Not really fair at all, is it?

And for me, it's less "competing" for a position as it is just being able to put together a sheet and show a willingness to work with the GMs and get along with the other players. I'm usually pretty fluid with my player limits, and if somebody's got the right attitude and put a lot of good work into their character sheet, there's a good chance I'll say yes, unless I state a game is closed, full-stop. If given the choice between a player who has excellent technical writing skills and put a lot of work into their character sheet, but there was a conflict in personality or a coldness, for a lack of better word, from one player verses someone who is less of an experienced writer but still managed to hit all the criteria I'm looking for while having a warm, open personality and a willingness to address concerns, I'm going to take the second one. I want people I enjoy roleplaying with, and that's what's important above everything else. Yes, I want someone who's demonstrated they have read everything and took the pains to make their character fit into the setting and world, but I also want someone who isn't afraid to joke around and genuinely wants to be there to hang out. Roleplaying is more fun when you treat players more like friends than employees.

EDIT to add moar:

I'm often asked from people about what kinds of characters I'm looking for in a game, be it race/ class or team role or anything like that, and I always answer the same thing: I want people to pick something they identify with and will have the most fun with. I know what you mean by some GMs showing favouritism towards a certain kind of character, which in some cases has lead to some REALLY bad characters getting accepted over really good ones, which makes me want to pull my hair out. I don't mind mentioning something like, "Oh, we don't really have many warriors or clerics, so if you want to do something unique go for that", but overall I think that a solid character is a solid character and people tend to put more effort into something they want to write as opposed to what they've been asked to write. The beauty of roleplaying is it's not like a video game that's stat driven, if you have a fantasy RP that has a group of 3 rogues, 4 mages, and one warrior, you can still make it work out just fine. I think a big pitfall a lot of GMs and players alike have is they try to think of a game in terms of video games, which is why you see a lot of people with super abilities and powers and top-tier weapons because they kind of feel like they have to have all that to be competitive or to win or something. Not a healthy mindset, if you ask me.

But honestly? Don't worry about "competing" for a slot. Most GMs will likely pick you if you get along with everyone and put in a good effort that meets all the standards they're looking for. Every game I've been in, generally the only ones that don't get picked are the ones that you can tell really didn't meet the standards or the players themselves had some character flaw. I've only seen people get rejected who had amazing character sheets on two or three occasions in the two years I've been here.

Problems with partners...

@Bravo

So just reject them if they aren't willing to work with you or they aren't able to meet the standards. You can do everything you just said without rejecting them and then asking them back because you wanted to test their character. I stand by what I said. It's a rather shitty way to go about doing things, in my humble opinion, since there's plenty of other ways of judging someone's character without resorting to bullshitting a reason to reject them even though you have every other intention to accept them.

It's not being "evil". It's just being a dick. Say what you have to up front and be done with it. I have two games that have been around for around a year each and I have rejected several applicants for each game for a variety of reasons. The ones who remain are the ones who have proven to be good characters and capable of meeting my standards without complaint. I am more than a little familiar with what it takes to run a game and chose people who are well suited for it, so believe me when I say that there are plenty of other very effective methods a GM can use that doesn't revolve around what you're advocating.

If you told me that I was rejected for a really silly, made up reason and then told me it was a test of my character three days later and you wanted me back, I'd refuse flat out. If you couldn't tell I'd be a dedicated and easy person to work with another way, then why would I want to participate? It's just rude.

Because this is over text, I feel like I should put a disclaimer here saying I'm not personally attacking you or saying you're an awful person, Brovo, I'm simply disagreeing with one GMing decision out of the many you obviously made that have worked for you. Healthy discussion and all that, blah blah blah, keeping it respectful and non-confrontational. I decided to edit this in because I've seen waaay too many things on the internet turn into something scrappy because text can come across as snippy or aggressive when it's not what was intended.

You know what today is! Praise it!

Seravee said

Fix'd?

loo loo loo, I got some apples

Sweet, new office hole punch just came in.

You know what today is! Praise it!

I'm sure Hitler loves the festive nature his birthday has become, you untermensch.