ActRaiserTheReturned said
This discrimination game is just sub-concious, or uninformed semantics play.
I'm merely highlighting that by claiming Homosexuality is a worse sexuality than Heterosexuality you are treating their sexuality as something less and evil, which is for all intents and purposes discrimination.
Brovo said
I don't even know what it is that is being argued. This thread has run its course, not that it really had one. :p
Basically ActRaiserTheReturned made the claim that the Bible/Christianity says nothing against Homosexual's
Although I'm a straight ally myself, I don't like seeing false claims about things like Religion made so I highlighted a few Bible quotes saying otherwise.
Since then it's been ActRaiserTheReturned basically trying to disprove it and/or that although he sees Homosexuality as something less, it's still somehow not discrimination.
As for what's going on with me and mdk?
Mdk started arguing that Christianity isn't homophobic because of how Jesus acted.
Which led to a debate over how much weight the Bible held vs Jesus.
Though for the past few posts, I haven't 100% been getting his points (hence why everyone of my responses has been a clarification rather than a flat out response) and apparently it seems to be leading to a spiritual journey. :P
HeySeuss said
It might be a more interesting argument to discuss the laws being put in place in Uganda or Russia's oppression of gays and see if anyone wants to justify those things, tough my guess is 'not likely' given that the Guild really isn't the place to find extremist psychos. I troll (off guild) for such psychos in other parts of IRC (off foonetic; I'm talking about much older networks that have populations dating back to the bad old days) to find the sort of argument I think a lot of people on here are hunting for, but that's me personally.I'd actually say that science is in the process of constantly correcting itself as more information comes in, which is precisely what science does and what it was designed to do. I find it very humbling in that respect, it gives you a lively awareness that you can easily be wrong. It'd be a very boring universe if we knew it all or even a lot.
I have fun debating psycho's time to time.
But often times this quote just end's up describing it perfectly.
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and then win with Experience".
Though I do usually entertain it (often getting dragged in till the end somehow anyways... Probably because I never like shutting up and leaving my mind unspoken :P).
Which has also been happening on the Guild a few times though lately cause we've gotten a rush of people whose arguments are literally "I don't give a shit", "Stuuuuuuuuuuuuuupid!" or "I don't like your evidence. So I will call it invalid".
Note: Not attacking Guild Community as a whole, just noting that with the site resurrection we seem of gotten an increase of these kind of people in OT.
We still have people like Brovo and mdk who have backed up their points very well and always had good reasoning behind it, even if I may not agree with them all of the time.
But atm I've been getting most of my debate fill from an atheist Group called The Cult of Dusty.
You'll find some people there as well who are basically, "I will spam my point until you agree or else!".
But the general purpose and intention of the community is to act as a marketplace of ideas, where the strong/best one will win in the end.
And many times everyone walks away with new insight and information in the topic discussed rather than hurt feelings.
Which overall I've been finding to be much more enjoyable and good for my mind than debating a psycho would be.
Shy said
"All verses are quoted from the New International Version of the bible (I was too lazy to actually check my NRSV)If you're going to use the bible to back up your claims, try finding proper evidence next time. Every verse you referenced discuss an ACT of homosexuality, none speak in regards to the person themselves.
It's still a Bible.
Perhaps you should clarify which Bible you follow though and why?
Since if we're going that route, there's 1000's of sub-groups of Christianity (All claiming to be the only true one, go figure) and all probably have a revised bible in some way at least.
As for describing the act, that is still discrimination and homophobia.
If you claim a man laying with a woman is fine, but a man laying with a man is not then it's the same argument and issue.
mdk said
I could give you a couple of sermons on this if you like. It's not an easy concept to grasp, or to explain. , nor is it invalid, nor silly, or anything like that. But , the and , one . So what's in the 'new covenant,' well, a lot, obviously. It's a big book. But it can be (and was) summed up And now I'm certain that I've well-exceeded the bible quota for a single post, so I'll.... well, shit, I still have half a quote to deal with. Let's move on.
So basically this is the "When Jesus died the Old Testament became irrelevant" argument?
If so, the Bible never seemed to outright say, 'Ignore the past Bible".
More that they gave a summary, as I quote "Teacher, which is the
great commandment in the Law?". Not how it's not only, but great.
Also, the 10 Commandments themselves basically have always amounted to "Worship Him" and "Don't be a dick".
But if you looked into the rest of the Bible there's clear support of things such as rape, slavery, sexism etc.
mdk said
No 'May or May Not,' he didn't, period. Scratch that -- he about what sort of attributes a godly person ought to have, and 'hatred, bigotry, and discrimination' got left well and truly off the list. He actually comes down pretty heavily on the side of the persecuted -- not just in the sermon on the mount, but in all his ministries, that was a common theme (Tax collectors were despised, so ). He did single out a group with modern implications -- -- not the gays. There it's not a matter for persecution or your newfangled '99% Hacktivism,' far from it. It's a personal journey, meant for one man.
I wasn't trying to argue if Jesus himself spoke against Homosexuaity or not.
Rather I was getting to the point that the Bible still does, which is basically the entire religions rules and such on paper.
mdk said
Now, the part nobody wants to hear.... Remember (you remember) the last time you got into an evolution debate with a staunch but maybe-not-so-well-prepared creationist? Of course you do. When the creationist said to you, "Science is conflicting with science" (let's face it -- he said it), what was your response? If you were a clever man, and you are, your response was that science contradict science. At most, one discovery might necessitate deeper investigation in order to ascertain the truth, and to reconcile (and amend) the things we know with regards to the new information -- but never , science doesn't do that.
So, what I'm bound now to say is... You need to dig deeeeeeeeeper. We're talking about theology now, which -- like etymology -- is a science of words. These words of course, the stakes are a bit higher, the scope is a bit wider, but we're dealing with a message and we can approach it scientifically. You have found a point which doesn't seem to fit! Put a dog-ear on that page and come at it with a rational, reasoning mind. Are there outside factors? Are these the words of God, or the words of god through men, or the words of men about god? You'll find those, and more. Poems. Songs. Commands, Rebukes.
The sober among you will note that I'm high on pills and bible right now. Betcha there's a verse or two about that, right? Heh. Well, my analogies sort of started taking on lives of their own. THE POINT WAS -- if you want to dig deeper, if you and to dig deeper -- I'm down to play my part, and we can do a little Zen-Master-Pupil meditation (. I'll never ask you to stop thinking for yourself, hell, I'll never STOP ASKING for you to think for yourself. But I can show you a thing or two on whatever path you want to follow, and when I stop being helpful you can kick me off the club, how's that?
Did I mention the pills. Shit's sake. Well, go on then. Wanna be a pilgrim for a bit? I'll be your spiritual mentor who's also apparently wasted.
Science is entirely based on finding the truth, with no assumptions made.
If they find something disproving a theory they will keep researching to understand it and adapt their theories.
So they could be wrong (they've been wrong plenty of times in history) but they adapt, they don't bring a pre-existing claim like God which must always stay true despite what is shown against it.
But in terms of a Religion like Christianity, there's a different element. The Bible.
The Bible is by all intents and purposes Christianity. Everything God said, wants of people and Christians are expected to follow in in there.
If your intent is to have me think Christianity is something separate from what the Bible says, you'll first need to explain why the Bible is not relevant to the Religion.
And if you do that, you would then need to tell me what exactly it is Christianity does stand on.
Because without the Bible they have seemingly nothing to base their beliefs on in my opinion.
Note that all your points on Jesus's teaching's were also Bible quotes.
If that isn't your intent and I've misunderstood I apologize in advance for the mis-reading on my part.
Also I feel the need to note, being an atheist I am not coming at this from the point of "God is real, he actually wrote this. So let's see what he really meant".
I am coming at this from a "I believe the Bible was made by man, and was a book valued as God's word. As a result no one dared remove anything since it would be blasphemy, and therefore conflictions, prejeduice etc. runs rampant".
And I have also ran into the Christian's who would in fact argue "The Bible is irrelevant, it was made my man".
But that like said earlier leaves the hole to fill of "What is Christianity based on?".
So in other word's I'm open to learning more on the topic.
But I've highlighted the main issues I have with Christianity and the Bible beforehand that needs to be addressed before I accept any claim that the Religion is not what the Bible says it is
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