Holding Corperations responisble for their pollution.

[Dervish]

Vortex said
Lol yeah sorry, I didn't mean that YOU said that, I mean that yes I agree with you that people would not want to go to the communist system because the have been taught to fight against it.

You would have to completely overturn an entire government, which typically only happens if the current government has made life so miserable for the average person that they feel the only option they have is to rise up and rebel, often at the risk of their own life. Say what you will, but the quality of life in most Western nations is the best anyone's ever had it. It's not perfect, but not worth taking a wild gamble over that historically has lead to ruin, which was the point I'm trying to illustrate.

Also, despite your insinuation that children are indoctrinated to hate communism (or reject or embrace a number of other things), people aren't inherently stupid. They can make decisions for themselves when they mature enough and start learning about the world on their own. You obviously came to your admiration of communism on your own instead of being taught to love its virtues from your parents (I could be wrong, but I assume this is the case), other people are the exact same way on a number of different issues.

[Vortex]

Apologies Nexerus it sounded like you were advocating the exploitation of the third world.

[Dervish]

The Nexerus said
You're the archetype of a reasonable person.

No small number of books, a half decent education, and real life experience hopefully shaped me into a decent human being.

[The Nexerus]

Vortex said
Apologies it sounded like you were advocating the exploitation of the third world.

Of course not. I advocate mutualism.

[Vortex]

Dervish said
You would have to completely overturn an entire government, which typically only happens if the current government has made life so miserable for the average person that they feel the only option they have is to rise up and rebel, often at the risk of their own life. Say what you will, but the quality of life in most Western nations is the best anyone's ever had it. It's not perfect, but not worth taking a wild gamble over that historically has lead to ruin, which was the point I'm trying to illustrate. Also, despite your insinuation that children are indoctrinated to hate communism (or reject or embrace a number of other things), people aren't inherently stupid. They can make decisions for themselves when they mature enough and start learning about the world on their own. You obviously came to your admiration of communism on your own instead of being taught to love its virtues from your parents (I could be wrong, but I assume this is the case), other people are the exact same way on a number of different issues.

Fortunately I live in Australia where the propaganda is low and am a inherent bookworm so I was able to figure out that "Hey, something ain't right here". In other western countries the right wing media has a very strong influence over the masses and when someone can influence the hearts of the people then the people will believe whatever they are told, FOX I'm looking at you.

[Jannah]

Dervish said
Although like most people I may subconsciously have bias towards one thing or another, I do try to keep an open mind about both sides of an issue. Personally, the sentiment of "it's just business" rather disgusts me and I don't think profit should ever trump civil, personal, environmental, or other ethical concerns. I have no problems with businesses being successful, but I do think there needs to be controls in place to monitor that they are keeping to ethical practices and meeting environmental criteria. I understand that in a lot of cases, it's not perfect and you can't do much to avoid a certain process from being a harmful pollutant, but you can take steps to limit it and create incentives towards a transition to less harmful practices. I can fully respect your personal situation, and I know I got very fucking lucky with the circumstances of my life. You hear all the time about how costly it is to be poor and how hard it is to actually break free of poverty. I think a lot of people don't realize that people aren't there by choice and are certainly trying to break out of that cycle. For instance, if you live in a city, housing is usually very expensive, and what little pay you make often goes to rent. If you live in the suburbs or the country, your options for transportation are limited. If you can afford a car, you have to pay way more money to upkeep the damn thing if you bought it cheaply used because it is going to fail, and so on. Back before I got my current job, I worked at a shitty, bottom barrel retail job and was trying to live in apartment with two room mates, where we split the rent three ways. I eventually had to move back home because I couldn't afford to live like that. I had to pay probably 400-800 dollars a year fixing something on my car, having health problems caused me to have quite a few sick days which you don't get paid for, and a bunch of other factors made it literally impossible to save money to afford better living conditions. It was a struggle just to break even every month, and I was glad I was able to move back with my parents, because I was able to get my life back on track there. A lot of people don't have that option, so what do they do? The world isn't a perfect place, so instead of trying to change everything at once, it's a lot easier to focus on the things that can be fixed first.

You're exactly right it's extremely hard to break free from poverty. It's why almost my entire family is poor. I have a couple wealthy aunts, but that's only because they married into wealthy families. It has turned them into complete arrogant snobs though. Anyway, I don't feel a need to pour out my entire life story here so I will just say it makes me feel a bit better when somebody finally shows sympathy. It's way too often poor people are blamed for their situation. In my case that couldn't be further from the truth since I was born into a poor family.

With that said, I suppose it can give you a bit of an idea of why I generally distrust most wealthy people, CEO's especially. Small business owners I have less issue with, however. I know most small business owners are just trying to survive too, but due to the nature of capitalism it's rare for small businesses to survive without being forced to expand. Of course that expansion happens at the expense of others.

[Dervish]

The Nexerus said
Of course not. I advocate mutualism.

Pretty much. This is why equal trade agreements and the like are great things, because just because a country has something we want/ need doesn't mean they should be exploited for it, and likewise, we have a lot of stuff that their countries need. Doing things for mutual benefit only helps everyone in the long run, or at least is the right thing to do.

Honestly, it would be nice knowing that the shoes I bought were made by someone who works, is compensated, and lives in comparable conditions to someone doing the same kind of work as over here instead of in some unsanitary, borderline dangerous sweatshop earning jackshit a day for backbreaking labour.

[Vortex]

Except the chances are that your shoes are in fact made in the sweat shop you hope they are not made in.

[The Nexerus]

^ You need to learn that there's a massive difference between being inadequately paid and being a slave.

Dervish said
Pretty much. This is why equal trade agreements and the like are great things, because just because a country has something we want/ need doesn't mean they should be exploited for it, and likewise, we have a lot of stuff that their countries need. Doing things for mutual benefit only helps everyone in the long run, or at least is the right thing to do. Honestly, it would be nice knowing that the shoes I bought were made by someone who works, is compensated, and lives in comparable conditions to someone doing the same kind of work as over here instead of in some unsanitary, borderline dangerous sweatshop earning jackshit a day for backbreaking labour.

The restrictions on trade that are entailed in non-free trade agreements are what facilitate unequal trade relationships. Ideally, every state would be engaged in a free trade relationship with every other.

[Vortex]

By the way Nexerus ar e you going to reply to the politcal ideology thread? Or are you just going to leave me hanging!?

I know the difference except sometimes people are paid so low and in such a bad position they may as well be a slave, to capitalism.

[The Nexerus]

Vortex said
By the way Nexerus ar e you going to reply to the politcal ideology thread? Or are you just going to leave me hanging!?

We're at different ends of a spectrum and it's unlikely that either of us are going to chance our stances. I've learned all that I could learn from you from other people that I've talked to.

[Vortex]

Aww I was enjoying our little sparring

[Dervish]

Jannah said
You're exactly right it's extremely hard to break free from poverty. It's why almost my entire family is poor. I have a couple wealthy aunts, but that's only because they married into wealthy families. It has turned them into complete arrogant snobs though. Anyway, I don't feel a need to pour out my entire life story here so I will just say it makes me feel a bit better when somebody finally shows sympathy. It's way too often poor people are blamed for their situation. In my case that couldn't be further from the truth since I was born into a poor family. With that said, I suppose it can give you a bit of an idea of why I generally distrust most wealthy people, CEO's especially. Small business owners I have less issue with, however. I know most small business owners are just trying to survive too, but due to the nature of capitalism it's rare for small businesses to survive without being forced to expand. Of course that expansion happens at the expense of others.

Yeah, that's usually the sad truth of the matter. Somebody's suddenly rocketed to a position of obscene wealth and suddenly, they act like dicks. Justin Bieber, for instance, is the perfect case study of that. He probably wasn't a bad kid before he was suddenly treated like royalty and had more money than he could ever spend. I guess when you have so much wealth that something as basic as affording your utility bills and groceries every month kind of makes it all seem trivial and you kind of get disconnected with the fact that most people aren't lucky enough to have enough money to live comfortably, let alone buy expensive toys and monster houses. And it's especially true in your case, how do you break out of poverty when you're born into it? It's families like yours that deserve a break more than anyone, but people tend to forget that. It's just damn regrettable that the people who are most able to do something about the situation you and countless millions of others face is that when you're so high up, you kind of lose sight of what's down below. It's what makes people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet so remarkable; they may be unfathomably rich, but they contribute so much back to charity that it's literally painful to try to wrap your head around the amount of money that's being funneled back into communities and towards good causes.

As for the small business thing, it's part of the reason I usually try to buy some mom and pop stores when possible, plus you usually get better service there. It's not much, but a few regular customers can make or break a business.

[Dervish]

The Nexerus said
The restrictions on trade that are entailed in non-free trade agreements are what facilitate unequal trade relationships. Ideally, every state would be engaged in a free trade relationship with every other.

Agreed, nothing to expand upon on my end.

[Jannah]

Dervish said
Yeah, that's usually the sad truth of the matter. Somebody's suddenly rocketed to a position of obscene wealth and suddenly, they act like dicks. Justin Bieber, for instance, is the perfect case study of that. He probably wasn't a bad kid before he was suddenly treated like royalty and had more money than he could ever spend. I guess when you have so much wealth that something as basic as affording your utility bills and groceries every month kind of makes it all seem trivial and you kind of get disconnected with the fact that most people aren't lucky enough to have enough money to live comfortably, let alone buy expensive toys and monster houses. And it's especially true in your case, how do you break out of poverty when you're born into it? It's families like yours that deserve a break more than anyone, but people tend to forget that. It's just damn regrettable that the people who are most able to do something about the situation you and countless millions of others face is that when you're so high up, you kind of lose sight of what's down below. It's what makes people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet so remarkable; they may be unfathomably rich, but they contribute so much back to charity that it's literally painful to try to wrap your head around the amount of money that's being funneled back into communities and towards good causes. As for the small business thing, it's part of the reason I usually try to buy some mom and pop stores when possible, plus you usually get better service there. It's not much, but a few regular customers can make or break a business.

lol omg I could rant about Justin Bieber for ages, but I won't. He's a perfect example of what I'm talking about though and why I instinctively don't trust most wealthy people. Hell, most of my family doesn't even like the rich snob aunts anymore since they look down on us since we're all poor. In the end though everything I've been through in life really shows why I'm so sympathetic to Marxism. Even before becoming Marxist I was rabidly left-wing, along with most of my family. My mother is practically a Marxist too, even if she doesn't call it that.

And yes, I try to shop at small businesses when I can, but unfortunately when you're on a tight budget it's hard since products tend to cost more. That's one reason why places like Wal-Mart are so bad imo, they basically force poor people to shop at them because they're cheaper due to all their products being made with sweat shop labour.

[mdk]

Jannah said
lol omg I could rant about Justin Bieber for ages, but I won't. He's a perfect example of what I'm talking about though and why I instinctively don't trust most wealthy people. Hell, most of my family doesn't even like the rich snob aunts anymore since they look down on us since we're all poor. In the end though everything I've been through in life really shows why I'm so sympathetic to Marxism. Even before becoming Marxist I was rabidly left-wing, along with most of my family. My mother is practically a Marxist too, even if she doesn't call it that. And yes, I try to shop at small businesses when I can, but unfortunately when you're on a tight budget it's hard since products tend to cost more. That's one reason why places like Wal-Mart are so bad imo, they basically force poor people to shop at them because they're cheaper due to all their products being made with sweat shop labour.

Giving you things you can afford is....... bad....? You're gonna have to explain the logic on that.

[Jannah]

mdk said
Giving you things you can afford is....... bad....? You're gonna have to explain the logic on that.

It is bad when it's at the expense of others. I feel like a complete asshole having to buy stuff that is made in sweat shops, which might as well just be slave labour.

[The Nexerus]

Jannah said
It is bad when it's at the expense of others. I feel like a complete asshole having to buy stuff that is made in sweat shops, which might as well just be slave labour.

Do you propose we only trade with other rich countries? How do you expect the countries currently reliant on 'sweat shop' labour develop economically if they can't produce anything, or if what they produce can't be bought by a consumer country? Jobs, of any kind, increase the standard of living of the area they're in. Working in a sweat shop is better than any of the alternatives for the workers, and it's very far from slavery.

[mdk]

Jannah said
It is bad when it's at the expense of others. I feel like a complete asshole having to buy stuff that is made in sweat shops, which might as well just be slave labour.

Ah. That's a much longer and much different conversation then.

[Kadaeux]

The Nexerus said
Do you propose we only trade with other rich countries? How do you expect the countries currently reliant on 'sweat shop' labour develop economically if they can't produce anything, or if what they produce can't be bought by a consumer country? Jobs, of any kind, increase the standard of living of the area they're in. Working in a sweat shop is better than any of the alternatives for the workers, and it's very far from slavery.

If a country is "reliant" on sweat shop labour to develop economically, it doesn't deserve to and should be allowed to rot.