Let's B!tch. I feel it's a healthy release for our roleplay annoyances 2.0

[Rilla]

I've completed two chapters of one of my bigger roleplays.

Also, Vex, I am part of the last two of one of your posts. Sometimes I just vanish(usually girlfriend related, like spending time out of town), or drop a RP(See: Bleach.. and Deadman's hand, I should probably say something to the people in the latter). It just happens sometimes, and I hate when I'm on the wrong end of it. xD

[Kestrel]

Jig said
When players obviously don't even look at other sheets before submitting their own character, resulting in awkwardly similar character roles within an RP (without complimenting or contrasting) or outright contradicting others. Grr.

Scout said
Oh, god, Jig. I mean, before making a CS, I won't mind if somebody just skims, but to outright *ignore* all other sheets is entirely disrespectful.

As a player I sometimes choose not to read sheets outside of appearance and such to avoid meta-gaming. It has absolutely nothing to do with disinterest. It is so that that my mind will be as blank as the my character's, making it more difficult to slip up.

Also while character variety is nice, it's also a luxury. What if all the archetypes I like are already taken? Should I settle for a character I like less? What if my writing experience falls short of writing X type of background or character? Should I not join the RP at all?

[Jig]

Kestrel said
As a player I sometimes choose not to read sheets outside of appearance and such to avoid meta-gaming. It has absolutely nothing to do with disinterest. It is so that that my mind will be as blank as the my character's, making it more difficult to slip up.Also while character variety is nice, it's also a luxury. What if all the archetypes I like are already taken? Should I settle for a character I like less? What if my writing experience falls short of writing X type of background or character? Should I not join the RP at all?

You can tweak your character so as to compliment the similar character rather than randomly having huge overlaps without addressing them. Case in point, I was once in an RP with somebody where there were two characters particularly skilled at battling where that was their main 'thing' each. Instead of this being player vs player conflict, we turned it into character vs character conflict and used it as plot points and elements of each characters' arc.

My character was an alpha male with questionable (ie: nazi-lite) views and the other character was a gutsy young woman, triggering a whole set of what-ifs. What does it do to my character if he loses in a battle to a woman, whom he'd presume to be weaker than him? What does it do to her if she loses to him, thereby 'proving' him right?

By putting some thought into our characters, we both got what we wanted from our characters (and more) without stepping on one anothers' toes. On the face of it, both characters were very alike in their role in the group (leadership qualities, determination, combat prowess, hot-headedness), but we played it to our advantage - only possible because we worked on our characters with knowledge of the other one.

In the same RP, I had a second character that was thoughtful rather than forceful, lacked confidence, and, frankly, much practical ability. To compensate for this, he had the unfortunate hobby of delving into the powers of ALL THINGS EVIL in order to deal with the same situations the others could breeze through. However, there was another character that was largely the same, and they felt like awkward re-hashes of the other, embarking on the same, but largely unconnected, character arcs.

On the other hand, there will be some situations where it would be simply inappropriate to use the same traits as another character. For example, in a 'team' RP, in which each character brings a different specialism to a team, doubling up is pointless and may well mean that two tech specialists cause a vacancy in a different (necessary) field. A GM-approved character in one specialism is set in stone and other players should choose different roles on the team, so, in that instance, I'd say you should probably choose a different specialism or a different RP. This isn't really character traits, though, and is hopefully not really a controversial suggestion.

For me, meta-gaming only occurs when a character is being given information that they shouldn't have access to. It's not meta-gaming to use your knowledge of the game as the player to guide your character into circumstances and events to make the story itself happen. That's to me, the way to make the most out of an RP as a story.

[vancexentan]

What about Gm's who power play their character(s)? Once in a naruto rp i had a guy who had a rinnegan (see naruto rp for details beware of spoilers) kid at six to eight years of age or so with stupid amounts of abilities attached to his eyes that weren't even canon with the actual thing. For example he stopped one of my characters from using a SOUND based jutsu that fucks up your brains ability to process stuff essentially rending them to their hands and feet, as well as blocking and sending back a hail of ninja stars my character threw immediately afterward. This was a character whom had been build with high regards in terms of talent. He was for all means and purposes a prodigal son in terms of it. But somehow he gets wrecked after those two attacks happening because somehow he negated both the sound jutsu and sent some sort of telekinetic blast at my character. In reality the kid would have needed to cover his ears or suffer from the attack (which has two post turns of charging) and get stabbed by the ninja stars or take the jutsu and block the physical attacks. You can't stop a ability that travels through sound.

I do my best to keep my characters when I gm to a above average to less extents. In a current naruto rp I'm playing my guy excels heavily in ninjutsu (the physical types of abilities) but sucks in genjutsu (illusions) and has average taijutsu (normal hand to hand combat sort of stuff). The only time I go out of my way to make a powerful character is if the rp needs a base to hold up on in case no one else specializes in that one area or can't be trusted to do so without power playing or the meta game. In exchange for that I make them the jock archetype character who prefers to smash thins as opposed to thinking things through.

[Brovo]

On the topic of multiple people playing the same archetype: It's fine. It merely means you need to adjust and show what makes your character unique. Develop them. Heck for two people with the same archetype you can set up such classic relationships as apprentice-mentor or comrade-comrade, battle brothers, rivalry... In fact it irks me when a person can't take seeing more than one of the same archetype. I look at it like a special snowflake syndrome. There are people who share similar skills and hobbies to you in real life, is it that outrageous the same might occur to your character?

What makes a character unique isn't their background or their role. It's how they deal with a situation. Their actions determine who they are, not their past or abilities.

[Kestrel]

Meta-gaming means using information the player has and the character doesn't to the advantage of the character. The line between what you know and your character know is often somewhat blurry, especially in RP'ing where there are time gaps between your posts. It is not always abuse, it is sometimes something that happens without you even realising it.

For the rest of your post I'm just going to quote Brovo;

two people with the same archetype you can set up such classic relationships as apprentice-mentor or comrade-comrade, battle brothers, rivalry...

That was it.

Besides, let's not forget that two people rarely write the same character the same. Superhero comics are a prime example of this. The CS will essentially be void as a descriptor as soon as the IC starts and we get to the show don't tell part of it all.

As for RP's requiring specially assigned roles; Have fun that one week before it dies because one person dropped and you need to put everything on hold to find replacement. That's a flawed set-up to begin with.

[Jig]

Kestrel said
Meta-gaming means using information the player has and the character doesn't to the advantage of the character. The line between what you know and your character know is often somewhat blurry, especially in RP'ing where there are time gaps between your posts. It is not always abuse, it is sometimes something that happens without you even realising it.

Even at the risk of minor meta-gaming, I still think that guiding your writing with OoC information tends to produce the best and most coherent results, and so it's worth having as much OoC information as possible. That's my experience anyway.

Kestrel said For the rest of your post I'm just going to quote Brovo.

Well, yeah, I agree with him. Overlapping character traits and roles can definitely be used and used well (exactly as in the example of rivalry I gave). It's just that I kinda think doing this well needs an awareness of who the other characters are in the RP and that generally means reading their sheets and OoC communication with the player.

Kestrel said Besides, let's not forget that two people rarely write the same character the same. Superhero comics are a prime example of this. The CS will essentially be void as a descriptor as soon as the IC starts and we get to the show don't tell part of it all.

While this is true, a character's conflict is usually decided (if the player has even given it thought, which is possibly the subject of New B!tching) at the sheet stage. Say, the RP's setting is a community in which werewolves are despised, and the player makes a werewolf character, the conflict of character vs society is already there, and this can be more and more specific, as in the case of the two characters in my previous post with dubious interests for the equivalent of the dark side of the force.

While we wrote differently and the characters were a bit different in their interactions and such, ultimately, their character arcs and storylines were basically the same.

[Pachamac]

I'm in agreement with Jig... once again. Jig, stop... stop reading my mind, man.

It's honestly nice to encourage diversity and complementation between characters and their abilities/traits rather then have overlap, and reading character sheets obviously helps this out a lot. Personally I occassionally find it fun to sign up for an rp later then others and base my character and their sheets on aspects not covered by other applied characters so that my character could help accentuate those characters and offer conflict/complimentation to them. I agree with Jig in that I wish more people either did this or at least try to differentiate their characters more to existing characters within the rp other then create a character that is a duplicate in a lot of instances.

Also, I'm actually a little bit stunned at Kestral's comment about sometimes not reading other peoples' character sheets. I mean, yeah, a lot of the time what goes into a person's character sheet ends up being different to what comes out within the IC, but I still find it a common courtesy to actually read what all other people have written, even with something like that. I mean, I'd like to hope they'd read mine.

[Jig]

Pachamac said
I'm in agreement with Jig... once again. Jig, stop... stop reading my mind, man.

If you had telepathy, you wouldn't not use it.

[Pachamac]

I say it only for your sake. There are some things nestled deep within my mind that no man or woman should have to see. Flee whilst you still can!

A mere taste of the most mildest things

[HollywoodMole]

Pachamac said
I say it only for your sake. There are some things nestled deep within my mind that no man or woman should have to see. Flee whilst you still can!

That's not even that bad... SHOW THE REAL CREEPINESS!

[Brovo]

Jig said Well, yeah, I agree with him. Overlapping character traits and roles can definitely be used and used well (exactly as in the example of rivalry I gave). It's just that I kinda think doing this well needs an awareness of who the other characters are in the RP and that generally means reading their sheets and OoC communication with the player.

No it doesn't. All it requires is a willingness to communicate in the IC and collaboratively tell the story. You don't have to acquaint yourself with the other characters OOCly to do that, as your character will learn about them by interacting with them. Spotting similarities they can then react appropriately.

Jig said Say, the RP's setting is a community in which werewolves are despised, and the player makes a werewolf character,

Special Snowflake Syndrome at its finest? Why would anyone do this. It would be far more dramatic to start out as a 'normal' or otherwise and then become a lycanthrope over the course of events, whether or not the character is sympathetic towards them. Then it would be actual character growth and not a character whose entire arc has already been partially completed in the background.

Remember the golden rule: Show, don't tell. Don't say character X is powerful, display it. Don't say character X is despised, show it, coordinate with the GM because (s)he's the only one who has to know all of this information.

Jig said While we wrote differently and the characters were a bit different in their interactions and such, ultimately, their character arcs and storylines were basically the same.

Then what do you care if they read your CS or not? It worked out in the end anyway, naturally, dynamically.

[Kestrel]

Jig said
Even at the risk of minor meta-gaming, I still think that guiding your writing with OoC information tends to produce the best and most coherent results, and so it's worth having as much OoC information as possible. That's my experience anyway.

Only if you want to mix back stories. Everything else can be done through IC interaction and honestly; chemistry comes from interaction. People can tell you George is a great guy, but you won't experience it until you meet him.

Well, yeah, I agree with him. Overlapping character traits and roles can definitely be used and used well (exactly as in the example of rivalry I gave). It's just that I kinda think doing this well needs an awareness of who the other characters are in the RP and that generally means reading their sheets and OoC communication with the player.

So basically what you're saying is, if someone's character gets angry over the smallest thing IC, you won't realise they have a short fuse unless it's stated in the CS? 'cause that's pretty much what you're saying but I don't think you believe that. I mean, sure the background may say those anger issues are because of X or Y reason, but is that relevant to your interaction of your character does not know that reason?

While this is true, a character's conflict is usually decided (if the player has even given it thought, which is possibly the subject of New B!tching) at the sheet stage. Say, the RP's setting is a community in which werewolves are despised, and the player makes a werewolf character, the conflict of character vs society is already there, and this can be more and more specific, as in the case of the two characters in my previous post with dubious interests for the equivalent of the dark side of the force.While we wrote differently and the characters were a bit different in their interactions and such, ultimately, their character arcs and storylines were basically the same.

Wat? Werewolves can make other people werewolves, so Pete's main conflict of being late for rent turns into that he's becoming a man-eating silver-shunning wolfman. Meanwhile John, already a werewolf, gets shot in his leg with a silver bullet, and rather than spending his pages rejecting the society that doesn't want him; he now has to find a doctor willing to remove the bullet from a werewolf or face death.

One single event can change a character's goal and purpose. Locking yourself into your CS is just silly.

Pachamac said Also, I'm actually a little bit stunned at Kestral's comment about sometimes not reading other peoples' character sheets. I mean, yeah, a lot of the time what goes into a person's character sheet ends up being different to what comes out within the IC, but I still find it a common courtesy to actually read what all other people have written, even with something like that. I mean, I'd like to hope they'd read mine.

Basically you want someone to acknowledge you did something. I get that, but to call that common courtesy is silly. I mean, I join an RP to write collaboratively and interact through fiction; that in and of itself is my reward. Sure it's nice if I get a compliment, but that's not why I RP or submit a CS.

[Jig]

Kestrel said
Only if you want to mix back stories. Everything else can be done through IC interaction and honestly; chemistry comes from interaction. People can tell you George is a great guy, but you won't experience it until you meet him. So basically what you're saying is, if someone's character gets angry over the smallest thing IC, you won't realise they have a short fuse unless it's stated in the CS? 'cause that's pretty much what you're saying but I don't think you believe that.

Brovo said
All it requires is a willingness to communicate in the IC and collaboratively tell the story. You don't have to acquaint yourself with the other characters OOCly to do that, as your character will learn about them by interacting with them. Spotting similarities they can then react appropriately.

As I say, in my experience, it works best to brainstorm with other players first. I certainly enjoy the 'plan, then do' approach more than just charging into things. For me, the just charging into things with no plan tends to result in vague characters less connected to one another or the plot because players are firing in all directions. I'm not saying it can't work off-the-cuff, but I don't think it does that often.

Brovo said Special snowflake I'm filling in the quote because the quote button ate it up because of the coding blah- at its finest? would anyone do this. It would be far more dramatic to start out as a 'normal' or otherwise and then become a lycanthrope over the course of events, whether or not the character is sympathetic towards them. Then it would be actual character growth and not a character whose entire arc has already been partially completed in the background.Remember the golden rule: Show, don't tell. Don't say character X is powerful, display it. Don't say character X is despised, show it, coordinate with the GM because (s)he's the only one who has to know all of this information.

Werewolf was just a vague example of a fundamental conflict being decided at CS level. Being a werewolf in a society that rejects him is a core conflict within that character, and while it's presumably a fairly common and vague one in that environment, in the example I'm still giving from a previous RP (intelligent but incompetent outsider dabbles with dark powers in order to compensate for missing skills constantly demonstrated by his peers) is a rather more specific character concept, if not the most original, and one that will (and did, in this case) make multiple characters based upon it feel like re-runs of the other.

Of course the conflict doesn't have to be explicitly stated, but it will be there (or should be).

Kestrel said Wat? Werewolves can make other people werewolves, so Pete's main conflict of being late for rent turns into that he's becoming a man-eating silver-shunning wolfman. Meanwhile John, already a werewolf, gets shot in his leg with a silver bullet, and rather than spending his pages rejecting the society that doesn't want him; he now has to find a doctor willing to remove the bullet from a werewolf or face death.One single event can change a character's goal and purpose.

It's true that goals change, but some stuff is fundamental. Sure, while John's immediate conflict is getting a doctor, his conflict with society is still the backdrop to the immediate events - and quite possibly the cause of them. For me, that would be the main conflict.

But I think we're getting hung up on werewolves. :P

Kestrel said Locking yourself into your CS is just silly.

Yes and no. Locking superficial details like appearance or whatever is silly (provided they remain consistent once the RP has started), but if people are planning around, leaving things to be picked up on and leaving space for your character - as I would be - , based on how you've presented them in a definitive OoC guide to that character, changing the fundamentals of that character is going to scupper the whole enterprise.

Brovo said Then what do you care if they read your CS or not? It worked out in the end anyway, naturally, dynamically.

It worked out badly because of the reduplication of the same character and story arcs that I feel were basically decided as core ideas of both characters at CS level.

[Pachamac]

Kestral said Basically you want someone to acknowledge you did something. I get that, but to call that common courtesy is silly. I mean, I join an RP to write collaboratively and interact through fiction; that in and of itself is my reward. Sure it's nice if I get a compliment, but that's not why I RP or submit a CS.

No, not at all. I don't require or expect people to read my CSes. Even if they did or didn't I would still read every other player's because again I think it's common courtesy and simple nicety. If they've gone to the effort of writing it out, then as someone who may be playing and rping with them it's a simple, nice thing to read their input and work.

[Scout]

Well, Kestrel, I'm not saying that I need them to read it and tell me what i did right. But imagine an RP where the characters have spent years together training or practicing or becoming specialized in *something.* It would be entirely necessary to at least discuss what their relationship is, even if it's as small as "they barely know each other" - they would still know a little bit about one another.

[Muttonhawk]

Hmm, this seems a good thread to release my pent-up frustration.

After spending some time skimming the debates, I can't say whether this has been specifically mentioned yet, but...

Why... oh why...
Do so many players...
Think it's a good idea...
To play as a clone of master chief.

This is really more of a subset of Gary-Sue syndrome I've seen that suggests that the player would like to treat this like a game rather than a collaborative story, and has reflected it by constructing a silent protagonist from your average FPS. I understand that, on paper, the concept of making a badass who's equipped for every situation and adaptable for anything else sounds reeeeeally cool. The problem is that I've run into so many people who forget to give these characters any more depth than a cardboard cutout of their reference picture. They very quickly become boring to play with, and (surprise, surprise) guess which player tends to drop out wordlessly from boredom at the first lapse in action? Hint: It ain't me.

Speaking of badasses, why does everyone feel the need to equip themselves with everything and anything at once? You don't need twenty knives unless you decided to make them from glass or something. Even then, why can't you do whatever you intend with one knife? It always slightly comical in my mind when someone equips themselves with a rocket launcher, two assault rifles, three pistols, enough spare magazines to equip a small country's army and the heaviest body armour known to man. To me, such characters will always look like a toddler swaddled in winter clothing when they try to run. I'm pretty sure I read a quote from a Terry Pratchett novel which outlined this perfectly. I can't remember it exactly, or even the source, but it went along the lines of an entire page describing an assassin equipping himself with every tool he had, one by one, then looking in the mirror and slowly collapsing under his own weight.

Phew! that feels better now. I feel like I wasn't scornful enough though. Welp, in any case, thank you for putting up this thread!

[soph]

OKAY
SO
I'M GONNA ASK A QUICK QUESTION.

Am I the only one who comes up with characters on the spot?

Because I hear people in other RPS that have characters already thought up, and then I think, 'OH I'M GONNA DO THAT!' but then I can't. And then when the OOC comes up, everyone has their CSs thought out, and then I take an extra day to figure it out. I mean, it may not be a bad thing, but I think it's something that should be common. I'd feel really bad if it isn't.

Sorry for bad wording. If there is any.

[Fox of Spades]

Nah, the same thing happens to me from time to time. Sometimes I'll have a RP character planned out in advance and they'll just click with a new idea, but sometimes I see a new Int. check, read the plot, then a new character idea just pops up.

[Frizan]

I simply can't plan out characters in advance, it always has to be on the spot. I dunno, might be a "flow" I get when an idea springs to mind. It only stays for a little while, so I have to take advantage of it while it's there.

As for my Bitching:

People who make canon characters act totally different from their personality when dealing with their character. It's so annoying to me, especially if I know what source material said character comes from.

God damn special snowflakes.