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    1. darkwolf687 12 yrs ago
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8 yrs ago
Current "Þæs ofereode, þisses swa mæg." - Deor.
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10 yrs ago
"Point me out the happy man and I will point you out either egotism, selfishness, evil - or else an absolute ignorance."
3 likes

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Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?
Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa?
Hwær cwom symbla gesetu?
Hwær sindon seledreamas?
Eala beorht bune!
Eala byrnwiga!
Eala þeodnes þrym!
Hu seo þrag gewat,
genap under nihthelm,
swa heo no wære.

Most Recent Posts

No, it wont get banned nationally, I am referring to the suggestions that states may ban it locally, charge people for flying it etc; Which would be as good as a national ban if the south bans it because, as far as I am aware, it doesn't really see usage outside of these states.
If the debate is about meaning, then its already been established; It means different things to different people, each to their own and everyone else should keep their nose out.

I don't understand why there is a debate at all :/
"Even if we are to ignore all of this and pretend all was equal except for the oversimplified popular-history causes, it wouldn't be a proper comparison. It's callous to pretend that retaining slavery is an equal crime to not paying your taxes"

And its wrong to ignore the aspects of the movements that essentially maintained the same thing; Control over ones own affairs, and that means all affairs. Which includes slaves. And considering the best part of the CSA's economy was built off slavery, honestly I can see why they were reluctant to give it up, a crime or not.
Not to mention it was a cross road of history where morality was shifting... So it wasn't exactly a crime at the time. Playing devils advocate, although many European nations had abolished slavery years before, Russia didn't abolish serfdom until the 60's, middle eastern countries still retained slavery at the time etc. Its rather unfair to attach a crime to the CSA and their flag when morality of the time had only recently, in historical terms, shifted away
The result of the forced abolishment of slavery has given the Confederate flag a positive image of defiance in the eyes of southerners, it seems. People are going to have to deal with the cultural heritage of the civil war, even if they don't particularly like the flag. Banning it is a very dangerous precedent to set and honestly is a rather silly reaction to the confederate flag having been used by a few absolute crazies. The IRA used the Irish Tricolour, shall we ban that? Headchopping revolutionaries' used the French Tricolour, shall we ban that? The crucifix has been used by insane killers and racists too, shall we ban all protestant christians from using the icon of their faith? Of course not, these all sound like silly things to do. As an outsider looking in, I see people looking at a flag and saying the same thing; "The people who used this flag such and such years ago supported and did such and such, thus it should be banned because it can have a meaning associated with such and such, and thus crazy people who support such and such rally around it!"

The problem is, if America does ban it as has been suggested, crazy racists will just find another symbol to use while the people who weren't using the flag for racist reasons will have been affected.






"It involved secession, but that's not really what people are interested in here. I mean, it's interesting that they are flying a flag of treason, but most people are more worried about the racial connotation, and the war provides at the very least the seeds of that connotation. You can't really divorce the secession of the south from the reason they seceded. The American reason for secession wasn't inherently fucked up at its core"

In my opinion, the reason for American succession was that the colonials wanted to have their cake and eat it to; They were a protectorate that dragged their protector into a war after said protector specifically said "No" and then rebelled when their protector handed them the bill in the form of taxes. Can it be considered a moral basis for secession? Of course, but so can the souths. While we all find fault in the morality of the social policies of the CSA or not, they were seceding because they wanted greater control over or rather a lack of interference with their own social policies and its implementation. That one of these policies was slavery that was in debate at the time doesn't, in my opinion, invalidate their secession.

"So long as the government isn't involved at any level in banning private use, we're cherry. Apple will continue doing embarrassing shit because that's mostly what they are about, really"

I was referring to a comment that one state was discussing a fee for its usage, which is basically a fine for flying it. I consider a state government to still be a government, I am remarkably concerned of the implications because, at the risk of making a slippery slope argument, once you ban one symbol you set a precedent for the banning of symbols.
Slowly but sure, the whole world goes gay.



This map doesn't seem all that accurate, as there are parts of various countries that allow gay marriage :/
"It's not like Scotland, who were playing the game of thrones just the same as England. And it wasn't like the American Revolution, where British rule was becoming a detriment to our economy and our ability to manage our own relations with our neighbors. The American Civil War was about the slavery question."

Surely it is still the same game, it is a power game where both sides were vying to keep themselves as entities independent of the others meddling; The south wanted to keep slavery against the wishes of the north, and the north wished to abolish slavery against the wishes of the south. As for the American Revolution, it was still about secession from a larger entity, where said larger entity declared it illegal. Whether it began over slavery, taxes, foreign policy or a disagreement about the colour of the sky doesn't change that it was, fundamentally, a civil war about secession. Further, as the southern economy was built so heavily on slavery, abolition would be a detriment to their economy. While barbaric, I see whether the motivations lie and where they parallel other events.

"And because it is a symbol of white power, I think that it is in bad taste for it to fly over any state capitals. " The flag of the Kingdom of England, the Cross of St George, was first given to the KoE as part of an agreement of passage so they could crusade and kill thousands of people in the name of their god. It has also, along with the flag of the United Kingdom has since become associated with facist groups, the flag of Ireland can be associated with the IRA, the flag of Northern Ireland can be associated with loyalist paramilitaries. The US flag was still associated with racism; Lincoln was an avowed racist. The French flag was first used by murderous revolutionaries who imposed years of terror on the French people. Practically any flag in the world has a negative connotation somewhere, I find it somewhat suspect to ban flags from flying over state owned buildings simply because elements with racist, violent or otherwise controversial/divisive ideologies have adopted them at one point or another. We may well run out of flags.

That said, its still very interesting that the southern states refuse to use the actual flag of the confederacy and instead use this flag. I find it almost amusing that said people can be blind to the history of the flag, perhaps willfully, possibly because if you completely ignore the connotations, it is a rather aesthetically pleasing flag in my opinion, If this is banned, I see the individuals who fly the confederate flag simply using another flag from the confederacy in its place. As a student of history I fear that this could be the start of what has happened to nazi symbols in Germany, where the policies become so harsh that you cant even portray them in period pieces without risking being sent to court. My fears here are sparked by the very draconian policies apple has employed, where they have removed Civil War games from their store for "portraying and glorifying racist symbols." I don't want to see the US go down such a road, and the banning of the flag and I believe one of the previous posts mentioned the possibility of charging people for using the flag (so in essence fining them) is a step down a somewhat dangerous path.

Let me preface this with a simple comment; I am British and so obviously am an outsider looking in. The closest I got to America was having a relationship with an American girl.

Now on to my thoughts as an outsider looking in;

As keyguy says, fly the correct flag over that confederate memorial; The only crime of those dead soldiers as a group was to be on the wrong side of history, give them their (proper) flag and memorial for pities sake.

To refuse to allow parts of the south to fly a flag they feel represents them, whether they call it the Confederate flag, the battle flag of the confederacy, the Rebel flag or the lollipop rainbow flag, is tantamount to me turning to the Scottish and saying "What? You cant fly the Scottish Saltire! Don't you know its associated with the Scottish Jacobite rebels who wanted to disunite this country after the acts of union?!" It's not just silly, not just selective morality (looking in, I see parallels between the American Revolution and the attempted secession of the CSA. From what I can tell, the argument from the Union side for the war was Restoration of Order, that the CSA could not legally break away. I would like to remind people that the Thirteen colonies could not legally break away from the British Empire, but did it anyway. To argue that restoration of order means the south had no basis for secession is to argue that the US should still be British. To further contribute to this selective morality, it is my understanding that there were Union officers who owned slaves and confederate officers that were abolitionists, and that the sides chosen were chosen for reasons that went past "lolracism me want slaves" so it is unfair to brand the flag representing ALL the ideas of the CSA as racist simply because slavery happened to be legal when the CSA was formed, and happened to be legal when it was crushed underboot. The CSA didn't exactly have the chance to reform it's self in its own course of time now, did it?) but is also by its nature the suppression of freedom of speech... In spite of the US proudly trumpeting the constitution and the amendment to it garunteeing free speech. While I am no expert in US law and regardless of my personal opinion on the boundaries of free speech, such an act, by its very nature, has to be a breach of this amendment and as such would fit the criteria for that word Americans fear over almost all others "unconstitutional."

A picture is worth a thousand words is very apt here, this image will mean something different to everyone. It is unacceptable to state that your interpretation is the only acceptable one and then ban the symbol. Its like banning Hindu's from using the Swastika because "its racist" even though to Hindu's its a positive symbol. Its short sighted, ignorant and above all a suppression of the rights of the people who wish to fly it, whether you agree with them flying it or not.

What ever happened to "I do not agree with what you say, sir, but I will die for your right to say it"?
What is this song all about?
Can't figure any lyrics out
How do the words to it go?
I wish you'd tell me, I don't know
Don't know, don't know, don't know, oh no
Don't know, don't know, don't know...

Now I'm mumblin' and I'm screamin'
And I don't know what I'm singin'
Crank the volume, ears are bleedin'
I still don't know what I'm singin'
We're so loud and incoherent
Boy, this oughta bug your parents
Yeah

It's unintel-ligible
I just can't get it through my skull
It's hard to bargle nawdle zouss(?)
With all these marbles in my mouth
Don't know, don't know, don't know, oh no
Don't know, don't know, don't know...

Well, we don't sound like Madonna
Here we are now, we're Nirvana
Sing distinctly? We don't wanna
Buy our album, we're Nirvana
A garage band from Seattle
Well, it sure beats raising cattle
Yeah

And I forgot the next verse
Oh well, I guess it pays to rehearse
The lyric sheet's so hard to find
What are the words? Oh, nevermind
Don't know, don't know, don't know, oh no
Don't know, don't know, don't know...

Well, I'm yellin' and we're playin'
But I don't know what I'm sayin'
What's the message I'm conveyin'?
Can you tell me what I'm sayin'?
So have you got some idea?
Didn't think so -- Well, I'll see ya
Sayonara, sayonara
Ayonawa, odinawa
Odinaya, yodinaya
Yaddayadda, yaaahyaaah
Ayaaaaaah!
Look at you guys! 601 posts.... I'm so proud of you. You're really coming along.


You will regret it before too long rofl
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