Pepperm1nts

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

None of that matters. It is irrelevant. If the genocides still happened, whether or not the Ottomans collapsed, or if the Iron Curtain happened, literally does not matter. Why? Because you are grossly underestimating the death toll of the Armenian genocide. There were 1.5 million Armenians in Turkey in 1914. The genocide began in 1915 and by the end of it over a million people were killed. If the genocide happened, none of what you mentioned matters. You'd still have over a million Armenians dead and their population in Turkey devastated and dispersed. EDIT: Maybe the population growth bit matters but that's not certain. And I don't understand why they would have "fed into the Ottoman Empire". Why not Europe? Why not anywhere else BUT the country that was responsible for the genocide?

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

dat 1910 map doe Get da feck outta hea' with dat. This is 1980, to start. Because modern maps are a rarity here's a few quotes from wikipedia:

Armenians in Turkey have an estimated population of 40,000 (1995) to 70,000. Most are concentrated around Istanbul. The Armenians support their own newspapers and schools. The majority belong to the Armenian Apostolic faith, with smaller numbers of Armenian Catholics and Armenian Evangelicals.

In 1995 there were only between 40,000 to 70,000 Armenians in Turkey, and most of them, according to that quote, were around Istanbul. This means there wouldn't even be that many Armenians left in Eastern Turkey, so they wouldn't be a majority there in PoW like you claim. Another quote:

Until the Armenian Genocide of 1915, most of the Armenian population of Turkey (then the Ottoman Empire) lived in the eastern parts of the country that Armenians call Western Armenia (roughly corresponding to the modern Eastern Anatolia Region).

Armenians, according to that, left Eastern Turkey after the genocide (or were killed).

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

@vilageidiotx I haven't been talking about Armenia-Armenia, though. I am not arguing the Turks would fight to the death to take back central Armenia. Central as in what we know to be Armenia in the real world. I am talking about the eastern parts of Turkey that are only Armenian depending on who you ask. That land has been Turkish for a long time now in the RP and the real world. That is what I am arguing they would fight for. I am not saying they would fight to the last man to take back Sevan. I am saying they would fight to the last man, or close, to take back.. I 'unno, Erzerum and that huge chunk of land Armenia took. And Istanbul. And what the Greeks took. EDIT:

And it was basically a five year war. Armenia's fight for independence carried on long enough to matter.

@Dinh AaronMk

This is the shit that we really need to be careful with. Look, I agree that commitment can sometimes be held above things like realism. It's okay if Googer has a fucking train get snatched by a plane because 1) it's cool and 2) he's googer and he's a big part of PoW, and we trust him. Plus that's a small, unimportant thing. But that doesn't mean we should excuse any nonsensical thing just because the player stuck around long enough to make it happen. If it's questionable, it's questionable and it should be called out. Mihn stuck around long enough to make Brazil impossibly influential and that didn't stop us from stomping it out, for good reason. It should be no different with other players. I am not saying we should stomp out what Evan has done, though. But "he stuck around so it's okay" is bullshit.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

Civil war =/= war against a foreign invader I am not denying that war wears people down though. But it's convenient that it was the Turks that became exhausted first. The side with the most to lose and also the best-prepared, somehow forced to tap out. The Armenians, meanwhile, seem to be fueled by war, because that's all they've done since Armenia got a player. I wonder why they're not exhausted. EDIT: I don't really want to keep arguing about this though. Whether or not Armenia's success makes any sense at all doesn't really matter now that it's done. The best we can hope for is that someone takes up Turkey so it's more than just a punchbag.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

@Dinh AaronMk That comparison to Vietnam would be valid if Vietnam had been invading the US, but that's not what happened. The American people grew tired of fighting a costly war overseas, because at the end of the day no one cared as much about Vietnam or communists if it meant losing thousands upon thousands of American lives on some foreign land. The situation with the Turks here is way different. They were fighting off an invasion. And because they believed Anatolia to be their land, they should have fought harder for it. The heavy cost means a lot less when you are fighting for your own home. I think the Vietnam example you brought up is a bit silly in this context but if we're really going to use it, then the Turks fit the role of the North Vietnamese more than they fit the role of the US, since they were the ones being invaded. Armenia would be the one with the role of the invader. The problem then becomes that, since they both believe the land to be theirs, there is no "the cost is too high to prolong this war in foreign land". They would both want to fight hard for what they believe is theirs.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

I don't have no damn disease. Cut the patronizing shit, you're better than that. I am completely aware that drawn borders are not universally agreed to and that claims overlap in people's minds for a variety of reasons. That still doesn't change how unlikely this whole thing is to me. I don't care how weak the Ottomans are, there is no way the average Turk would let this happen as easily as it has happened. It's like every Turk in the country agreed to roll the fuck over at the exact same time. The government may be done for, but there are still people. Pissed off people, even. You said it yourself. Don't underestimate how hard someone will fight for their land, or something they believe in. But you make no mention of how the Turks are not fighting hard. Some people are going to say the land is Greek, or Armenian, but just as many will believe it is Turkish. Yet they are just sitting there doing jack shit. EDIT: And I am not entirely convinced the fall of the goddam Roman Empire has any weight in this discussion. A lot of what happened to them still applies, sure, but the gap between a Roman Legion and an army of barbarians was significantly smaller than the gap between an industrialized nation with aircraft, tanks, ect, and one that lacks that. Polish arms may have closed the gap a bit but how much is arguable.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

I don't know if the US would have cared enough to join, especially if it happened during their conflict with Canada. The US was isolationist for a lot longer in PoW. They may have condemned the attacks and it may have damaged relations with the US, as well as with other South American nations, but it's not guaranteed the US would have become involved. Ask Byrd, though. As for relations with Panama.. well, obviously they wouldn't take kindly to it. But I don't think Panama would be able to retaliate. I did some quick research and their military history can be described as 'non-existent'. It's more likely other South American nations would have done something about it.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

@vilageidiotx

France and Algeria. Russia and Afghanistan. The US and France in Vietnam. The US in Iraq. It's a bad idea to underestimate what happens when a group of people are willing to sacrifice everything.

Hold up just a goddamn second. In every single one of those examples, the loser in the strong invader. That is not what happened in PoW. In PoW, the loser was the strong defender, and the winner, somehow, was the weak invader. The defender in this case is also educated and at least well-armed, where the defender is under-armed, under-manned and with a population that is not as well educated. Not to mention the defender has the automatic advantage of being home, where most people will support the defense Literally the only thing the invader has going for it in this case is the made-up disadvantage of the defender's leadership being incompetent. But holy hell, how incompetent do you have to be to let this happen? And, like.. really, where the hell are the country's educated people? They're just sitting somewhere while all these weak states pick away at their nation? They're like "well our sultan was stupid so there's nothing we can do now that he's FUCKING GONE." In your examples, it was weak, highly uneducated guerrilla fighters successfully fighting off major powers. So why can't a, let's say 'decent', moderately educated nation that is at least partially industrialized, well-armed and at the very goddamn least more organized than just any guerrilla group having trouble stopping all these weak nations from picking it apart? Sorry dude, but I don't buy it. I am not saying we should fix anything though, I'm just saying I don't see it being 'believable'.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

Oh, yeah. I guess Hungary would be Poland's only real enemy, since they had a war a few years back. Hungary attacked Ukraine and Poland intervened.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

@vilageidiotx I guess we'll disagree there, then. @Jeddaven Turkey is probably not an enemy. Relations are sour, probably, but I think 'enemy' goes too far. Especially if you go with Vilage's suggestions to have an Arms Industry that deals in shady shit. The arming of Armenian rebels could have been done by the Arms Industry without authorization by the government. Or it could have been the government, but the blame could fall on the Arms Industry. And Prussia wouldn't be an enemy as much as it is a concern. Like, there is no on-going conflict happening between them, just, like.. they are wary of each other, I guess. Serbia is not their enemy either, I don't think. Aside from that, your biggest enemy would probably come from within. There are probably Czech and Ukranian nationalists that aren't pleased to suddenly be Polish. You could look into Austria-Hungary and the problems they faced to see more or less what you'd be dealing with. But in short, a lot of people trying to gain more rights for their minority group, trying to secede, protesting, rioting, maybe even small-scale rebellions and assassination attempts, ect. It depends on how big it is allowed to grow and how long the problem is allowed to exist, but Austria-Hungary had to deal with all of that at different points. And then the Archduke happened.