I was only bullied once for a week. I didn't care so much what they said to me about me, its when they brought my sister(who was not there to defend herself) into it that I snapped. It was the beginning of the school year at a newish school. By that I mean the middle school down the road. The moment those kids started calling my sister and I foul names I pulled out my scissors and told them I would stab them if they didn't stop. Needless to say, I got detention. They left me alone after that though.

So, I think anti-bullying campaigns will not help. We had a woman that was bullied come to the school and talk about what she went through. Did it stop bullying in that school? Probably not. I doubt half the people that went to that remember anything about it. Children need to learn that harming others physically and mentally is not an acceptable way to vent anger. It doesn't matter whats going on at home, in order to believe that our fellow man is mostly good, we and they need to understand this. I don't know if this is still the standard, but its what I recall, most children over the age of 7 have a complete understanding of what is right and what is wrong. We teach our children to be "nice" at a young age. Right now, my niece is in her hitting phase. She isn't two yet. My sister and her husband are teaching her it is wrong. So clearly, anything anti-bullying should start from home.

I think I am rabbling now. I do that when its... early. I probably shouldn't be typing since this cursed thing hates buttons. Also, sorry for any typos, my typing abilities dramatically decrease at 2 in the morning.

The whole "we should'nt work against verbal bullying" theory is incredibly ignorant when put in perspective. Ignoring a bully is all fine nad well, i agree that you should try and make sure it doesn't get to you. But bullies rarely work alone, many of them are good at making the bullied a outcast from his or her peers. The incredibly cynicism in the statement of "we are coddling" our kids and that it's leading everyone to being "entitled little shits" is bullshit. You want to know who generally feel entitled in that regard, the ones that get away with being a bully, the people more fortunate. As someone who suffered some severe cases of bulliying, It triggered me into a case of severe depression. Severe depressive state at the age of 13, could you fine cynical gentlemen explain to me how that have helped me as a person? It hasn't, the scars many kids have to bear from bullying commonly lead to trends of resentment and alienation.

However, as stated. Bullies are generally people who are in a emotional slump, and they force it onto other. By finding these causes, you can work against bullying. By teaching things such as solidarity and working with kids in regards to make them more empathetic we can limit bullying. Society doesn't need bullying, it should be minimized, if we can save a single more child from living in fear of his peers it should be worth the effort. I feel that arguing against that is morally repugnant and detestable.

On the subject of telling people that they need to man up or that we should allow more physical confrontation. You guys are striving backwards, future generations is what will change the world. We need to teach them that physical violence and the whole hyper masculinity bullshit is bad.

Magic Magnum said
That's often the issue though. If a Physical fight does happen the school lacks witnesses for the incident usually.Friends who were present don't count, cause they're friends and count as a bias source. And usually in High School, those who do watch who aren't friends don't care to report it and see justice done. They just want to see a fight and then bail before a teacher breaks it up. So often you get left with a "He says, she says" situation, so even if it's a case of one kids a big trouble maker, and the other is a good kid the school often feels forced to punish both the same because they can't actually prove whose fault it is.

Been there, done that. But I think it's still a stupid adult problem -- the adults making this determination not only don't know who did what first, they don't know the kids because they're desk jockeys that don't know the kids at all. I was attacked outright by this kid and put into weekend detention over it and I purely acted in self-defense. He didn't ever fuck with me again though, so it was entirely worth it. I did learn that a lot of bullies can talk their way out of trouble with a sufficiently stupid adult, and a lot of those stupid adults were school administrators, though. Teachers know what's up because they see the kids in the class every day, but they are limited in their powers. Murikin Edderkashun, y'awl.

Sometimes it's down to that whole thing where you gotta do the best you can and fight back, and I've had to do that several times. Just never, and I mean never ever, pre-arrange a fight with people. Fight spontaneously, if immediately threatened, but never set a time and a place for a fight. I learned the hard way that the other guys are scum, will bring their buddies and will bring weapons. So don't do that -- if they swing at you, do what you gotta do, but don't go arranging fights, and for god's sake don't try to fight fair (because really, fighting isn't fair if you aren't in a boxing ring and everything is fair game -- bullies argue differently, but why let them make up the rules that limit your responses?) One of the worst mistakes of my teenage life.

Hellis said On the subject of telling people that they need to man up or that we should allow more physical confrontation. You guys are striving backwards, future generations is what will change the world. We need to teach them that physical violence and the whole hyper masculinity bullshit is bad.

I didn't make the world, I just live in it. If someone takes a swing at you, you can't really turn the other cheek very well. At that point, you do what you gotta do. I'm not telling people to man up and start a fight, I'm telling them to ignore the fuckers until they take a swing and then finish that fight. Then again, I have a formal martial arts background and the teaching there tends to emphasize finding a way out of the conflict first and having the self-confidence to seek peace in avoidance of a fight. But it teaches you what to do in the event of the worst case scenario, which is one where you have to self-defend. I believe that self-defense is a fundamental right -- until the teacher or administrator that's supposed to break up the fights is there, you're on your own (and so is the bully, whether they know it or not.)

Sure, I ate a suspension once that way, but that's because the rules and the people enforcing them are stupid. I don't believe in standing there and letting them beat on me without a response until a teacher finishes their coffee and wank and finally gets around to breaking up the show just to avoid a 'disciplinary blemish' on my school record (ooh-ah, I still got into the University of Maryland).

FWIW, I did find friends during my first year of HS and never had to really deal with it again. We were too busy doing shit to really worry about outsiders -- we did concerts at the Woodlands Pavilion, were usually playing D&D or fixing my buddy's old car or just chilling in the backwoods of Texas. Part of my problem was that I was moving around a lot and always the new kid, but I also learned to tune out anyone that wasn't in my circle of friends and become pretty cliquish. I'm sure that sounds like a 'oh, so you weren't a very inclusive person' situation, but really? Who needs more than a few friends? You can be basically polite to people, 'fuck off, you're an extra in my reality paradigm' to assholes and worry mostly about your friends and family, because they're your people. I still maintain that attitude of divvying people into 'us and them' and I genuinely do not give a fuck about 'them.'

I believe that self-defense is a fundamental right -- until the teacher or administrator that's supposed to break up the fights is there, you're on your own (and so is the bully, whether they know it or not.)

I am not arguing against his at all. If you are a person, in the situation where you have no other option but to fight back. Then you have to fight back. That much is simple, although the outcome is never easy to predict.

I was referring more to MDK's exceptionally ignorant statement that we should allow more physical altercations. I was more referring to the whole culture we build for ourselves when we force association between violence and respect. The very same psychological basis that is behind the Jock kicking around a scrawny kid etc. MDK made the argument that it should be allowed, that it was important for teaching how the world work. That is building on the status quo and if we had all adheared to that all the time things would look today the same it did 100 year ago. Progressive thinking, empathy and solidarity towards your fellow man and woman should be paramount. The point is that we should not allow bullying, in any form. Nothing good comes from it, at all. It causes deep emotional trauma in kids, it ruins lives and breeds alienation. You know who prey on alienated people? Criminal element. There is strong ties between people who perceive themselves as outcast from society and youths that end up on a criminal career path. Hell, the radical rightwings that been jumping immigrants and what not here, all were on the polices lists as juvie's, and pretty much all have issues with problems at school and feeling alienated. People who feel alienated, something that Bullying clearly causes, are exposed and easy target for pressure.

Interesting thing I considered while responding to the posts below.

Most of us seem to be of agreement, without some kind of negative conflict in people's lives that people aren't going to have thick enough skin for the real world. We may come in expecting everything to be puppies and rainbows, and then be painfully disappointed. However, we all also know all the negative effects that come from situations such as bullying? The effectiveness of this new anti-bullying campaign aside, if we were in a world where issues like bullies are completely non-existent, is there anything else we could do to teach children to be realistic enough and have thick enough skin for the real world?

Also, another point I'd like to nip in the bud, the "Bullies are bullies for a reason such as bad things in their life".

This is a correct statement I find, if you only make it apply to some bullies and not all bullies. Some people do not have such issues or insecurities in life. They are just generally sick people who enjoy hurting others. I think one reason the schools have had so much issues with bullying is because it insists that every Bully is a victim themselves, and the sooner we recognize that is not the case with everyone the sooner we can get going in life. I mean we see far more demented people in life than bullies and we don't always go "Oh they were a victim", often times we recognize said person was just a nasty individual. If we do that for even more extreme behaviour that has even better reason to suggest a bad life/experience behind it, why is it so odd for some people to grasp the concept that some bullies may just be bad eggs?

Hellis said -snip-

Tip: Coming into a thread and then making generalized accusations of everyone (especially in a demeaning way) will not help with anyone listening to or agreeing with your points. All you do is back people up against a wall and make them defensive.

You do have a point though in that Bullies if left to their own devices are more spoiled and act more entitled than a child would if conflict never really faced them. As for your Depression? Nothing from the depression itself would of helped, but like I said in my earlier post being bullied can help someone gain thicker skin and be more realistic of the world cause you can see the world for more how it really is and less of a "everything is good" bubble that a lot of people try to be in.

This is not defending bullying in the slightest mind you, I simply answering your question as to how experiences with bullied would of helped you as a person.

As for saying people here are going backwards? I think you're reading too much into the 'Man' part of the "Man up" statement.
We're not being sexist and telling boys to be super Masculine, we're saying it's important for people as a whole (men and women) to understand conflict, and to not enter the real world with paper thin skin.

HeySeuss said -snip-

The schools we came from tend to be similar in their incompetency with handling the bullies. And as long as that is the case, students are right to learn to defend themselves and take matters into their own hands. If the school isn't going to bother helping those who are bullied, they have no right telling students what to do or not do when they get bullied. But that doesn't mean just cause it's currently an issue that we dismiss it as an issue and let it be, that is a big hole/injustice in the school system and it needs to be fixed.

I'd start honestly by taking away the administrations right (save the principal) to hand out punishments to students, but the Principal is required to speak directly with both the involved parties, and witnesses beforehand. Should also accept insight from teachers who know the students better than they do, and should also get out of the office more to simply have a better understanding on the student's so they're more aware of who the good kids are, and who are the kids who go around causing this trouble.

As for your small group of friends mentality? I can relate. I stuck with one group of friends in High School (with a few extra who were from elementary school and wandered off to other groups) and it was all I needed. Some people are just too outgoing to stick with one group, but they are not everyone. Some people function just fine (or even better) with just one group of friends, there's nothing wrong with that. It's where outsiders are treated I have mixed views in with you. I think being polite with people (especially if they did nothing to you) is important, but there's nothing wrong with adopting a "I don't care for those outside my group stance", especially if the community you're in like my High School is generally filled with shallow, selfish and ignorant people. I'd honestly really say, even if such a stance is taken that you should at least not to treat someone badly who personally is not guilty of such things simply because you don't know them. After all, all of your friends were also at some point people you didn't know.

I refuse to sugar coat it. If Jorick can make such a broad statement as calling anti-bullying campaigns bulsshit and say that we coddle our children, then I can state my point of few in equally colorful words. We are arguing on equal grounds here. TO say that bullying is positive, in any sort of way, is ignorant and cynical to such a degree it's insane. Growing a thicker skin from bullying is not worth it when you carry with you childhood trauma from it, when you have your empathetic link to other people irrevocably damaged from fear of being hurt.

Fun facts:

-- It is estimated that 160,000 children miss school every day due to fear of attack or intimidation by other students.

-- Suicide rates among 10 to 14-year-olds have grown more than 50 percent over the last three decades.

Hellis said
I refuse to sugar coat it. If Jorick can make such a broad statement as calling anti-bullying campaigns bulsshit and say that we coddle our children, then I can state my point of few in equally colorful words. We are arguing on equal grounds here. TO say that bullying is positive, in any sort of way, is ignorant and cynical to such a degree it's insane. Growing a thicker skin from bullying is not worth it when you carry with you childhood trauma from it, when you have your empathetic link to other people irrevocably damaged from fear of being hurt.

Fun facts:

-- It is estimated that 160,000 children miss school every day due to fear of attack or intimidation by other students.

-- Suicide rates among 10 to 14-year-olds have grown more than 50 percent over the last three decades.

There seems to of been a miss-communication. I'm not saying don't be blunt and honest with your views, the world honestly needs more people willing to be blunt/honest about these matters if we are to get anywhere. What I was saying was taking the extreme stance that only some people had, and then claiming that's what everyone here is doing isn't going to help the case. Because that in itself isn't being honest about everyone's stances/views on the matter and no real discussion can take place if people are saying one thing, but the person on the other side is claiming they're saying something else instead.

I need to spell check my stuff I just noticed. I never once stated that it was the stance everyone took. I clearly states my intended target being those that:

1) Feel we should allow more physical confrontations.
2) Seem to think we shouldn't work against bullying and we should stay willfully ignorant to kids being picked on by their peers (see: Joricks rant about coddling kids and people being "entitled little shits.")

1 being incredibly counterproductive (and very in line with the whole Violence = Respect i linked to in the youtube clip.)
2 Being a cynical and downright ugly display of ignorance towards the terrible consequences bullying have on so many people. And this coming from a person who generally agree to alot things Jorick writes.

I don't understand this view that some here have stated about "never" being able to solve or get rid of something. It's like saying we can never achieve a said goal, however, history shows us that when there is a claim that such and such a goal can never be accomplished, it ends up getting accomplished.

It's far more realistic to look at something and just say "I don't know."

Can bullying ever be fully eliminated? I don't know.

However, can it be limited significantly? I believe it can.

Hellis said I was referring more to MDK's exceptionally ignorant statement that we should allow more physical altercations. I was more referring to the whole culture we build for ourselves when we force association between violence and respect. The very same psychological basis that is behind the Jock kicking around a scrawny kid etc. MDK made the argument that it should be allowed, that it was important for teaching how the world work. That is building on the status quo and if we had all adheared to that all the time things would look today the same it did 100 year ago. Progressive thinking, empathy and solidarity towards your fellow man and woman should be paramount. The point is that we should not allow bullying, in any form. Nothing good comes from it, at all. It causes deep emotional trauma in kids, it ruins lives and breeds alienation. You know who prey on alienated people? Criminal element. There is strong ties between people who perceive themselves as outcast from society and youths that end up on a criminal career path. Hell, the radical rightwings that been jumping immigrants and what not here, all were on the polices lists as juvie's, and pretty much all have issues with problems at school and feeling alienated. People who feel alienated, something that Bullying clearly causes, are exposed and easy target for pressure.

whoa, that escalated quickly. "I wish more things could be settled with fights" is what I said, and that's..... a woefully under-crafted sentence in this context, shit, that's my bad. Sorry. Very misleading and totally on me. Let me try again (if this is still hitting people the wrong way, just say the word and I'll back out).

I don't think physical violence between two kids is inherently damaging (barring, obviously, someone causing serious injury). Where am I getting that absurd notion from.... well, one day (shit like ten years ago now) the local big kid was trolling my friend, the local small kid, and for some reason I thought it looked bad, and I jumped in there with a right hook. Proceeded to get my ass kicked for the next two minutes or whatever before kids came in and broke it up.... **immediately** we all (me, big kid, small kid) nodded, acknowledged "yeah I guess that was kind of messed up, sorry, we good brah, yeah we good," and became best friends. I mean this was instant. We were playing soccer not five minutes later; everything was settled, period, we had our fight and now it was done, and that was it. We all learned from it, we all grew from it, Big Kid never picked on little kids after that, Little Kid went off and became an Air Rescue medic, I became a pilot. Not "because of this fight," at all, that's not what I'm saying, but.... because we were *able* to fight over it, we were able to learn that much more about ourselves, and grow as people.

And **that's** what I meant to be talking about when I said "kids should be allowed to fight blah blah blah MDK words." I know, that's not at all what I was implying -- my mistake, sorry again. But I certainly didn't mean 'Let's all join the Republican party and harass immigrants,' either, so.... maybe we're both approaching this wrong. Anyway. Fighting isn't bad, conflict isn't bad, by nature. There are situations where it's a negative thing (and that's where bullies typically operate), and that's when we should be worrying about it -- but to go at this problem with a broadsword instead of a scalpel, we lose so much. I mean, hockey fans, back me up here.

Hellis said The whole "we should'nt work against verbal bullying" theory is incredibly ignorant when put in perspective. Ignoring a bully is all fine nad well, i agree that you should try and make sure it doesn't get to you. But bullies rarely work alone, many of them are good at making the bullied a outcast from his or her peers. The incredibly cynicism in the statement of "we are coddling" our kids and that it's leading everyone to being "entitled little shits" is bullshit. You want to know who generally feel entitled in that regard, the ones that get away with being a bully, the people more fortunate. As someone who suffered some severe cases of bulliying, It triggered me into a case of severe depression. Severe depressive state at the age of 13, could you fine cynical gentlemen explain to me how that have helped me as a person? It hasn't, the scars many kids have to bear from bullying commonly lead to trends of resentment and alienation.

However, as stated. Bullies are generally people who are in a emotional slump, and they force it onto other. By finding these causes, you can work against bullying. By teaching things such as solidarity and working with kids in regards to make them more empathetic we can limit bullying. Society doesn't need bullying, it should be minimized, if we can save a single more child from living in fear of his peers it should be worth the effort. I feel that arguing against that is morally repugnant and detestable.

I'm getting the impression that this was largely directed at me, given that most of those things in quotation marks seem to have come from my post. My point was not that we should just ignore things and let them sort themselves out, but rather that fighting against children being assholes to other children is a futile battle. That is why I said the course of action should be to teach kids how to deal with such bullying themselves, rather than trying to place them in a protective bubble and trying to make children stop being mean to others. Your own experiences are exactly the thing I'm talking about. If you'd had effective anti-bullying skills things very likely wouldn't have gone that far and you would have gained some experience in conflict resolution. If someone had swooped in and tried to drape their protective cloak over you whilst telling the bullies they're hurting your feelings and being awful people and need to stop, well... Did you ever see a teacher try to do that sort of thing? Ends up just giving the bullies more ammunition, doesn't do fuck all to stop them. Bullies go after those they see as weak, and needing adult protection screams weakness to them. Kids need to learn self-defense in this regard, rather than needing protection.

As for trying to find the root causes of bullying and stamping them out, good luck with that, it'll be just as futile as trying to stamp out meanness in children. Hell, it'd probably be more futile since there are so many different things that can cause a kid to think bullying is a cool thing to do, ranging from inherent dickishness to abuse or neglect at home to seeing other bullies do things which they emulate to try to fit in. I wish you well in your crusade, but I don't expect to see anything come of it.

Hellis said I refuse to sugar coat it. If Jorick can make such a broad statement as calling anti-bullying campaigns bulsshit and say that we coddle our children, then I can state my point of few in equally colorful words. We are arguing on equal grounds here. TO say that bullying is positive, in any sort of way, is ignorant and cynical to such a degree it's insane. Growing a thicker skin from bullying is not worth it when you carry with you childhood trauma from it, when you have your empathetic link to other people irrevocably damaged from fear of being hurt.

Fun facts:

-- It is estimated that 160,000 children miss school every day due to fear of attack or intimidation by other students.

-- Suicide rates among 10 to 14-year-olds have grown more than 50 percent over the last three decades.

Anti-bullying campaigns are bullshit right now because they're going about it in the most stupid and ineffective ways. You're misunderstanding me if you think I'm saying bullying is an inherently good thing. My point is that futile efforts are futile and should be redirected into effective methods, specifically these campaigns need to switch from trying to end all bullying to giving children the skills and tools necessary to deal with bullying with as little physical and mental damage as possible. Go re-read my first post and pay attention to the second paragraph instead of focusing only on the first. I am against pointless campaigns that preach unrealistic messages, not against doing things to deal with bullying.

Also, as for your so-called facts, that first one is rather shady, a "fact" thrown out there just because a firm number sounds neat. It's actually more than 20 years old and the way they got the number was rather shaky. Here, read the article I found when trying to find the source of this number. It was from a CDC survey that asked if kids had skipped school in the last month due to feeling unsafe at school or on their way to or from school, many of whom could have responded to with a yes due to living in or near an unsafe neighborhood that they have to walk through to get to or from school. I'd suggest discarding this statistic since it's so old and was never very robust in the first place.

For the suicide thing, I'm curious as to where you got those statistics. I can't find anything for suicide rates by age group in 1984 (closest I could find was a rate for 1980), and the most recent suicide rates I could find were for 2010. Here is where I got older numbers, and here (go down to the Suicide Rates by Age section) is where I found yearly rates for 2000-2010. If you want to talk about the last 30 years that we have statistics for, to compare 1980 to 2010, it's only 25% higher, not 50%; in 1980 for this age group there were 0.4 suicides per 100,000, and in 2010 it was 0.5 per 100,000. But that is fairly misleading in and of itself, since the tiny rate (less than 1 per 100,000 per year in all years) of suicide in the 14 and under age group has huge percentage fluctuations from year to year. 2007's rate was 0.3, 2008 and 2009 sat at 0.4, and 2010 was 0.5. A 33% raise and then two years later a 25% raise in the suicide rate among 14 and under children sounds like a crazy pandemic, but it's not, it's a product of the inherently tiny numbers being discussed. Also, if you were to take a 20 year view instead, you could say that the 14 and under suicide rate has dropped ~40 percent because the rate was 0.8 in 1990; cut it down to 15 years and you could say it was almost cut in half, because the rate spiked at 0.9 in 1995. That's the funny thing about statistics: they can be interpreted to mean different things. You, or whoever you got your figure from, used the numbers to try to show a massive problem by being rather selective with year range choices and displaying it as a percentage rather than giving the actual numbers. I already showed how I could be just as misleading by doing the same thing to show how much less suicide there is now.

So I guess the thing to take away from this is to be wary of using statistics to support your claims without actually finding and examining their source, otherwise pricks like me might come along and expose any shenanigans for what they are.

Dark Wind said I don't understand this view that some here have stated about "never" being able to solve or get rid of something. It's like saying we can never achieve a said goal, however, history shows us that when there is a claim that such and such a goal can never be accomplished, it ends up getting accomplished.

It's far more realistic to look at something and just say "I don't know."

Can bullying ever be fully eliminated? I don't know.

However, can it be limited significantly? I believe it can.

I can't speak for others, but the reason I say bullying will never be solved or gotten rid of is because of my fairly cynical view of human nature. As I said before, humans are social creatures who form hierarchies; I see cruelty and violence as being just as much a part of human nature as kindness and compassion, and the former is more common than the latter; combine those two, simplify the hell out of it, and you get hierarchies + cruelty = bullying. My point of view on the impossibility of eradicating bullying stems from the exact same school of thought that says that while pure communism is awesome on paper, it'll never work because of the ways people think and act.

I don't know what you mean about limiting it, but I'm of the opinion that the negative effects of bullying can most certainly be significantly mitigated by focusing on equipping kids to deal with these things, rather than trying to eradicate bullying itself. Someone else already used the "teach a man to fish" analogy in this thread I think, but it's apt so I'm going use use it and rephrase it here with another gross simplification. Protect a kid from a bully and he'll be safe and happy for a day, teach a kid to protect himself from bullies and he'll be safe and happy for life.