Bullying Discussion

[Rare]

I made this because of the topic of bullying that people are talking about. People everywhere can be bullied, schools, work, and even at home.

Talk about which side you're on. Are you against bullying or support it or you just don't give two shits? Be nice to everyone now, no bullying within this post.

[Vilageidiotx]

I tried out to be a bully once, but my wet willies weren't wet enough so I didn't make the cut.

But honestly, if we don't allow bullies in school then where are we going to get cops?

[andromedene]

What are you even talking about? Who even endorses bullying?

[mdk]

ImANargleHunter said
What are you even talking about? Who even endorses bullying?

Depending on your definition of 'endorse....'

For instance, I think the crusade against 'bullying' is very misguided. Every confrontation is reduced to 'which person is being the bully,' and then crucifixion. I wish more things were allowed to be settled with fights. I think jocks are better prepared for adult life than most nerds. Etc. Physical violence, to me, is not as much of a 'no-no' as most people like to act.

[andromedene]

If I ever meet you I'm pushing you out of your wheelchair.

[Vilageidiotx]

Eh, the jocks being more prepared thing is a high-school myth. The problem with the stereotypical jock behavior is that the important things in adult life don't really work like that. Sure, you will be able to carve a niche out in bars perhaps, but you can't punch your way through an interview. Anecdotally speaking, nerds seem to grow out of it and put things they learned in their nerd years to use finding and succeeding in a career. Whereas jocks seem to have a tendency toward not adjusting well outside of high school. Some join the army and grow up there, but even some who leave the army don't quite adjust.

I do think that the anti-bullying thing is starting to reach witch hunt proportions. It is true that violence is a problem that needs to be addressed. But when you get into the more vague concepts like verbal bullying, you have to define things that aren't as cut and dry as being kicked. Being teased, unlike violence, is something you can turn around and use to your advantage if you are clever.

Really, I think the best fix would be to give teachers a little more functional authority.

[mdk]

Vilageidiotx said
Eh, the jocks being more prepared thing is a high-school myth. The problem with the stereotypical jock behavior is that the important things in adult life don't really work like that. Sure, you will be able to carve a niche out in bars perhaps, but you can't punch your way through an interview. Anecdotally speaking, nerds seem to grow out of it and put things they learned in their nerd years to use finding and succeeding in a career. Whereas jocks seem to have a tendency toward not adjusting well outside of high school.

Idunno if we're talking about the same jocks. I mean the sports kind, quarterbacks and point guards and wrestlers and the like. 10 out of 10 of the nicest and best people I know were in competitive sports in high school.... you learn a lot more in a locker room than you do on a math test, IMO. Doesn't mean we got along in high school, but that's why they call it 'school' I guess.

[Hagura]

Bullying is a past time. A relief of stress. I have been a bully and been bullied. I can't explain it very well right now. But if you have questions I don't mind answering them.

[Vilageidiotx]

mdk said
Idunno if we're talking about the same jocks. I mean the sports kind, quarterbacks and point guards and wrestlers and the like. 10 out of 10 of the nicest and best people I know were in competitive sports in high school.... you learn a lot more in a locker room than you do on a math test, IMO. Doesn't mean we got along in high school, but that's why they call it 'school' I guess.

I'm not saying they are bad people; I always got along with everyone. It is in my nature. I even have one cousin who is a stereotype jock and we spent our teen years hanging out and playing CoD and Halo all the time. Now he comes to me for advice despite the fact he is three years older than me because he has had trouble out of highschool. I admit that my personal view of bullying is that people are too soft skinned and that it is best to handle it by having a sense of humor about yourself, but that is just me. Maybe I was lucky to be able to do that.

What i'm saying is that those people tend to have trouble. Especially the ones you noted. Now, there are certainly those well rounded people who did well in school and did well in sports, and well rounded people always do the best out of everyone, but what tended to happen is that the purely jockish would be popular in high school and good at things related to high school, but once they left they would flounder. Popularity works differently in the adult world. Your coworkers like your ability to do your job more than anything else, because if you do your job shitty that means they have to work more, and there are fewer jobs that are purely physical than there used to be. In the modern working world, what you learned in math class is much more essential than people want to admit.

If a jock can get a physical job and has the cognizance to realize that they aren't the shit anymore so that they stay there, then they will do well. But it seems like too many of them are chasing something they lost in high school. Like I said, it does seem some of them join the army and grow up, but I suppose that depends on them or their experiences in the army because some of them leave the army only to be in the same floundering position.

I suppose the important thing to remember is that High School coincides with one of the most critical times in your emotional life, but it is otherwise one of the least important times in your life. When people don't realize that, they have trouble.

...this is coming from someone who has lived in small towns, I will note. Here, our jocks tend to be coddled because people take high school football very seriously - even the adults. You'll hear stories of football players not having to do homework because administrators are afraid it will distract them from football. For all I know, it is different elsewhere.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I can't speak for the "anti-bullying" campaign cause I haven't ever seen it in practice.
Though if my area is doing it (which I doubt) they are awful, my High School in cases like fights would punish the victims just as badly as the bullies just cause the victim would defend themselves. My High School also lacked the balls to properly discipline the people who did cause trouble, so they essentially had free passes to even make metal shuriken's in the metal working room, throw them at the ceiling and have them stick there... with the constant risk one could fall and slice some poor student's head open.

As for Bullying in general?
It honestly depends on what you define as bullying.
If you mean people purposely doing stuff for the sole purpose of making another person feel bad?
That shit is just stupid and has no benefit and should stop immediately. I have no patience for those who become a bully.

If it's just a matter of someone having thin skin though? As in they hear another person voice an opinion or mindset they differs from them and they start yelling "I'm offended! You bully!" then that's bullshit.
People should be allowed to voice different opinions and thoughts without being told be quiet because someone disagree's with them.

mdk said
Depending on your definition of 'endorse....'For instance, I think the crusade against 'bullying' is very misguided. Every confrontation is reduced to 'which person is being the bully,' and then crucifixion. I wish more things were allowed to be settled with fights. I think jocks are better prepared for adult life than most nerds. Etc. Physical violence, to me, is not as much of a 'no-no' as most people like to act.

Eh... Jocks tend to be more popular/liked by the students as a whole.
So even if the Jock is in the wrong, the student's will side with the Jock over the nerd just because the Jock is 'cool'.
Jocks are also more involved in extra-curricular's than nerds, so Teachers are more likely to get to know the Jocks better than the nerds.
This causing Jocks to get more support once again.

The only cases I've seen teachers be on the side of the Nerds is if they either:

a) Didn't take part in extra-curricular's, knowing students only by how they behaved in class.
b) Were in extra-curricular's, but only in one's that Jocks tend to avoid, and victims of bullying tend to go to (EX: LGBT Club)
c) Worked with students with special needs

As for the adult life argument?
Generally I'd have to disagree. Most jobs these days require skills in the mind, a high intelligence and a good education.
A lot less depend on how fit you are, or how well you can throw a ball. Not to say Jocks aren't smart, but you don't need to be smart to be a Jock, you need to be good at sports.
To a Nerd, you basically do have to be smart, and them be ridiculed by most of the school for it. The only jobs I see Jocks having an edge in are those that are dependent on physical work, and those jobs are shrinking each day as machines (made by nerds) replace them.

The only real acceptation to this rule I would say are in certain towns/communities that almost completely spill effort's/resources to cater to the Jocks.

To use a rather crude and extreme example, that case a year ago where a football team drugged a girl and raped her at three different parties.

The entire town and school went out of their way to cover up the rape because it prevent the Jocks from becoming professional athlete's and gaining renown for the town.
Would of gotten away with it too if not for the fact a hacker got wind of it, and made it his mission to expose the town for what they did.
Hell the town went as far as to condemn anyone who was mad at the rapists for raping the girl, and then proceeded to victim blame the girl who was raped.

Now, like I said above, that is an extreme example.
But it shows Jocks can be basically set in life not cause they are that competent in their own right, but because an entire community is willing to back them because of what the town can stand to gain if those Jocks actually do happen to get somewhere big in life.

If a nerd get's somewhere in life? It's normally the college/university they were at that get's the credit.
If a Jock get's somewhere in life like sports? The town and school they played such sports in get's the credit.

Essentially....

TLDR: Nerds are better off on average cause they have a more valuable skill set for the world of today.
Jocks are only better off if the community actively goes out of it's way to get the Jocks into a better position in life.

[mdk]

because it's generating discussion, I went and found us a paper about athletes in regular professions. They do between 1.5-9% better, on average. The model used tries to reduce the impact of competitive, motivated people choosing to play sports, and make it more of a random-selection, 'if any single person just randomly got thrown into a sports program, would they do better' type of equation.

[Cayden Black]

I suffered bullying for years. I still end up with a cold anger when I see any form of it. Ironically the bullying has also helped me build those imaginary chains that hold back a lot of how I feel.

It is not acceptable. Suffer two different schools worth of it and then tell me you think it alright. I can tell you now, it hurts far worse than a stab wound. Those heal...

[Vilageidiotx]

mdk said
because it's generating discussion, . They do between 1.5-9% better, on average. The model used tries to reduce the impact of competitive, motivated people choosing to play sports, and make it more of a random-selection, 'if any single person just randomly got thrown into a sports program, would they do better' type of equation.

College athletes are a whole other ballgame. Once you've made that cut, it is established you have some legit skill.

That being said, i'm just speaking from personal experience and won't pretend to have any data on it. Could very well be a regional thing. And it could very well be economic. Or it could mean I just knew too many exceptionally dumb jocks. I do not know.

[mdk]

Vilageidiotx said
College athletes are a whole other ballgame. Once you've made that cut, it is established you have some legit skill.That being said, i'm just speaking from personal experience and won't pretend to have any data on it. Could very well be a regional thing. And it could very well be economic. Or it could mean I just knew too many exceptionally dumb jocks. I do not know.

It's college nerds, too, though, which again, you'd expect them to have some serious brains.

Anyway I'm noticing in hindsight that this whole sidebar has really taken the thread for a fork in the road, which is my fault for bringing up a more general topic during a bullying conversation, so we should probably cut it out now.

Cayden Black said
I can tell you now, it hurts far worse than a stab wound. Those heal...

Someone is doing a really poor job of stabbing you....

[HeySeuss]

The short answer is to grow a thicker skin and stop caring about them -- usually there is a reason the bully is bullying, and it's a problem they have, not you. You need to remember that it's not your problem, because they're trying to make it your problem in order to feel better about themselves. Maybe daddy beats them at home or whatever and they want to take it out on you to feel better. That means letting them get in your skull is giving them what they want. So you're winning when you don't even let them factor into your life. Don't try to please them, piss them off, or whatever -- tune them out, basically.

(If they do you physical harm, of course, you gotta do something...but I suppose as an adult, that doesn't come up much anymore. I think minors should be able to fight a bully in scenarios of physical self-defense without punishment so long as they don't provoke, but that's me, thinking that people who fuck with the bull should get the horn.)

Don't give them what they want. Develop a thicker skin and a critical eye and figure out what's eating them. The only people that bother to bully are people with something to gain, so they're trying to impress someone or feel better about themselves. It's not as much about you, the target, and your problems as much as what they're trying to overcompensate for and that they think you're the weak meat. When you go in knowing that, it's easier to mentally tune them out and present an unsatisfying target. I work in a pretty harsh professional environment with some scumbags (kitchens haze and are often abusive, especially for new hires), and my process for dealing with them is that when they cross a line, I make a note to stop caring what they say or do. I cut them off. I'm still polite, but I also know that they aren't worth my time.

[Pepperm1nts]

Cayden Black said
I can tell you now, it hurts far worse than a stab wound. Those heal...

Your assailants have been trying to stab you with the blunt end of a knife, I see.

[Jorick]

The anti-bullying movement is largely a steaming pile of bullshit. Fighting against physical violence is great, kids beating each other up is a cut and dry thing that shouldn't happen. Trying to coddle kids and say "verbal bullying" is some horrid epidemic that needs to be fought is just ridiculous. A little strife and misery is good for you, it helps you to not become an entitled little shit who thinks they deserve everything handed to them. Recent parenting and education movements about how a child's self esteem are super important and need to be protected and nurtured like a delicate little flower leads to kids growing up to become entitled little shits. Those kinds of people aren't prepared for the real world of adulthood, they don't learn how to effectively deal with conflict or how to deal with defeat, and that ends up causing much more strife and misery than any school bullying. This newer crusade against "cyber bullying" is even more ridiculous because they're treating it with the same seriousness as the kind of bullying that constitutes assault; the answer to "cyber bullying" isn't some major education and reform program, it's to teach kids to get off the internet if they're too fragile to deal with mean people, just click that little X in the upper right corner of the page to get away from the awful bullying.

As nice as it might sound to defend the bullied and condemn the bullies, to try to stop bullying altogether, the fact of the matter is that it never will stop. Humans are social creatures that form hierarchies, violence and cruelty can be justified by any number or rationales, so bullying is going to happen. The best way to deal with it is to teach people how to stand up for themselves and deal with problems rather than trying to shield them from all negativity. People need to take off their hope and optimism goggles and realize some problems are endemic to humanity and will never be eradicated, so impact mitigation is the best that can be done, and bullying is one of those problems.

[Gwazi Magnum]

mdk said
because it's generating discussion, . They do between 1.5-9% better, on average. The model used tries to reduce the impact of competitive, motivated people choosing to play sports, and make it more of a random-selection, 'if any single person just randomly got thrown into a sports program, would they do better' type of equation.

It becomes a different ball-game is it's college athletes.
Those Jocks have already proved to have enough Intelligence to get in a college (Unless if say, they excepted some "Shoot 10 baskets and we'll accept you" crap), while the examples most of us were pointing to were High School Jocks. Those who could have as little Intelligence as possible, cause unlike college there is no grade, performance or skill requirement to get into a High School (with some acceptations).

HeySeuss said (If they do you physical harm, of course, you gotta do something...but I suppose as an adult, that doesn't come up much anymore. I think minors should be able to fight a bully in scenarios of physical self-defense without punishment so long as they don't provoke, but that's me, thinking that people who fuck with the bull should get the horn.)

That's often the issue though. If a Physical fight does happen the school lacks witnesses for the incident usually.

Friends who were present don't count, cause they're friends and count as a bias source. And usually in High School, those who do watch who aren't friends don't care to report it and see justice done. They just want to see a fight and then bail before a teacher breaks it up. So often you get left with a "He says, she says" situation, so even if it's a case of one kids a big trouble maker, and the other is a good kid the school often feels forced to punish both the same because they can't actually prove whose fault it is.

So basically, the only way for victims to have a change to not be suspended for being beat up, is by simply taking it and not defending yourself. At least that's how my High School worked.

Jorick said -snip-

I get the reasoning here, and I can agree to an extent. Being in Early Childhood Education atm, I'm seeing people be trained to go as far to not even allow competitive games like Musical Chair's cause of "self-esteem". So yea, they are taking it to a bullshit extreme.

Now to speak from the view as someone who spent 3 years at a school where everyone hated/picked on me. Verbal bullying can be as serious as physical bullying, if enough people do it at once it can seriously destroy you on the inside. But at the same time, that same experience is one of the main reasons I look at things from a Realist viewpoint and not a "I want it to be X so the world is X" viewpoint. It also made me unafraid for other communities in the future to hate me, cause I'm already used to it and they're simply not worth my time if they choose to cast me out like that.

So in the end, I can agree such experiences do toughen you up and make you better prepared for the real world. Bullying is never going to fully go away, and without some kind of negative conflict as a kid you're not going to grow up right. But at the same time, that's not a license for us to ignore it and let bullying go rampant (even if we prevent the Physical bullying). The bullying I was exposed to there only lasted for 3 years (Granted, I was still bullied later years. Just not to the same extreme), but if say I never left that school and had to graduate from there (It was elementary school and I started there at Grade 3) that would of been 6 years of it. That could of broke me, that could of simply crushed my spirits. That might of been enough to make me actually want to kill myself and stop being afraid of burning in hell for doing so (fear of hell is what stopped me last time, I was still religious back then).

We should at least be trying our best to prevent bullying without being completely paranoid and safety bubble over it. Some bad stuff will leak through anyways, that should be enough to teach kids what real life is like anyways.

[Kestrel]

Rare said
I made this because of the topic of bullying that people are talking about. People everywhere can be bullied, schools, work, and even at home.

Talk about which side you're on. Are you against bullying or support it or you just don't give two shits? Be nice to everyone now, no bullying within this post.

I disapprove of bullying, but as the saying goes; give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I think anti-bullying campaigns that try to fight the bullies and cuddle the victims are doing nothing but teaching poor life lessons where these movements should be focused on teaching kids how to deal with bullying. It's sort of like trying to teach vipers not to bite rather than a person who goes into an area with vipers how to avoid them.

Of course then we have the whole victim-blaming bullshit discussion going on, with people who are more concerned about political correctness than solving a problem. Thankfully that hasn't shown it's ugly face in this topic yet.

Anyhow. Generally one should make their selves unattractive to bullies as a target. Either by tuning them out as in HeySeuss' example, or in case of physical bullying wait for them to be alone and have an iron rod ready to bash their head in stand up for yourself and fight back. You might not win, but a couple black eyes are a surprisingly good incentive to switch targets for a bully.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Kestrel said
I disapprove of bullying, but as the saying goes; give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I think anti-bullying campaigns that try to fight the bullies and cuddle the victims are doing nothing but teaching poor life lessons where these movements should be focused on teaching kids how to deal with bullying. It's sort of like trying to teach vipers not to bite rather than a person who goes into an area with vipers how to avoid them.Of course then we have the whole victim-blaming bullshit discussion going on, with people who are more concerned about political correctness than solving a problem. Thankfully that hasn't shown it's ugly face in this topic yet.Anyhow. Generally one should make their selves unattractive to bullies as a target. Either by tuning them out as in HeySeuss' example, or in case of physical bullying stand up for yourself and fight back. You might not win, but a couple black eyes are a surprisingly good incentive to switch targets for a bully.

Good point with the "Teach to deal with bullies instead of fixing the bullies" part. That approach for some dumb reason didn't occur to me. It probably would be the best way to handle the bullying issue honestly.

However, we need to be careful if we teach kids "Make the bullies want to pick on someone else", cause it's still someone getting bullied. If everyone started doing it, we'd want to be careful to make sure it encouraged the bullies to just give up, rather than decide they may want to up their game to deal with it.