United States Government can pretend to be you.

[Pachamac]

So long as people remember to remain Fonz cool and civil, I don't see why the mods and admins would have a problem with anything.

[Dipper]

The GamerGate thread lasted for a long time before it was closed, and it got real heated at points. And it only got closed because I asked it to be, so again, I really don't see what you mean by that.

[Pachamac]

A lot of the time, moderators aren't going to be looking through and trawling through every thread just to make sure people are behaving because of how time consuming and in all likelihood, boring it is. Their attention is typically only drawn to 'problem threads' that are, like you said, drawn to their attention by other users, where they then check first to make sure everything is okay, and if not...

[Vortex]

Cant believe this is actually a debate about debates, lol

[Gwazi Magnum]

I don't make any claims as to if Mods/Admins only come in after a report, or watching it on their own.
All I know is threads end up getting closed at a certain point of heat/tension generally, and it's rarely something they make any sort of comment on before closing rather than "This is out of hand", which usually leads to suggest it was closed because they or someone else did not like the rising conflict, which given as this is an RP site and not a debate site makes sense.

And hold on, we're debating about debates.
DEBATECEPTION!

[Vortex]

Magic Magnum said
And hold on, we're debating about debates.DEBATECEPTION!

Its all Obamas fault!

[Dipper]

Vortex said
Its all Obamas fault!

Racist. :P

[Dipper]

EDIT: I double posted like a pleb.

[mdk]

Vortex said Anyway, whats your solution mdk? Dare I say a revolution?

Institutionalized apathy. Revolutions empower new people to rule; we don't need a new pack of senators to solve the problem, the problem is we have a pack of senators running wild all over the hill. We need to show them just how pointless they are. For instance, I think eight-ish years ago there was a government shutdown withing NYS in Albany. Some big massive thing, and the two sides got into a grandstanding match, and we were all supposed to believe that the sky was falling. For the first few weeks all the state-congressional phone lines were ringing off the hooks, people writing letters and calling in to talk shows, begging everyone to compromise or find a new solution, something, you know, just get the government back in place (New York is very much a nanny-state). Of course the publicity was amazing, so all the state-senator types were like 'fuck it, let it ride, we're getting famous.' But then after a few weeks we all looked around and realized that the bridges didn't magically collapse, the jobs didn't magically go away, and frankly, shit was running smoother than ever (I dunno what the solutions were in NYC, because I lived upstate, but they figured it out). The shutdown lasted long enough that we all realized "Hang on..... why don't we just do this all the time?" It fell off the frontpage, life went on, and everybody was fine. The talk-show calls changed -- we stopped asking 'What can we do to make our senators go back to work?' and turned into 'Hang on, do we really have to pay them for these last couple months?' We were realizing, collectively, just how much we didn't need Albany. How irrelevant they were, and how much we over-valued their contributions to our lives -- absence made the heart grow stronger. When the GOP/Dem leaders realized that we were figuring it out, sure enough, they figured out a compromise that protected both of their interests, and the state government is right back to work. But some of us learned our lesson.

So that rambled. What's my solution? We don't need or want any kind of revolution, get that out of your head. The chains are imaginary. The cage is imaginary. They are pointless, they don't control you, and they can't stop you. Just. Be. We could shut them down, or we could let them pretend they're in charge. The moral is, it's irrelevant.

[Rtron]

Magic said That's like saying you can't judge tea readings, crystal balls, astrology etc because you don't take part in it.

Not with something you can change. If I complain about something I could change or could try to change and I don't, then what am I complaining about? I obviously don't care enough about it to try and change it, so I must be pretty much fine with it as is. It's like walking into your trashy room and going 'I hate all this trash. Something needs to be done.' And then sitting there and doing nothing.

mdk said Fuck that. I don't need or want a government to make *ANY* decisions that impact me. So as far as I'm concerned, we can get by just fine on 1% voter participation.

Then those 1% make 100% of the federal decisions that affect you. As a hypothetical example, say you're a college student, and you don't vote. The federal government proposes a bill to pay for college tuition for everyone. The 1% goes 'Nope'. You'd be affected, without ever giving your opinion.

[mdk]

Rtron said
Not with something you can change. If I complain about something I could change or could try to change and I don't, then what am I complaining about? I obviously don't care enough about it to try and change it, so I must be pretty much fine with it as is. It's like walking into your trashy room and going 'I hate all this trash. Something needs to be done.' And then sitting there and doing nothing. Then those 1% make 100% of the federal decisions that affect you. As a hypothetical example, say you're a college student, and you don't vote. The federal government proposes a bill to pay for college tuition for everyone. The 1% goes 'Nope'. You'd be affected, without ever giving your opinion.

Nah nah nah. We're not a democracy, we're a republic. Those 1% pick the .0001% who make 100% of the decisions for me. Or 30% can pick the .0001% who make 100% of the decisions. The number represented in the voting is not the problem -- the involvement of the .0001% (senators and congressman) is the issue. Focusing on voter participation is all we've done for eighty years, and it turns out that doesn't do anything to curb growth of federal power. As it stands, I can send an e-mail to Chuck Schumer today whether I voted for him or not, thus, my opinions are equally represented in the senate whether I vote or not. My real influence in 'decisions that affect me' comes from talking to, and educating, the actual people around me -- I can't just stick my head in a booth for five minutes every year and pretend that makes me a good, empowered citizen.

[Rtron]

mdk said I can't just stick my head in a booth for five minutes every year and pretend that makes me a good, empowered citizen.

Fair enough. But you can vote for the person who you think will either support your views the most or you think will screw you over the least. You want more gun control? Vote for whoever supports that. You feel abortion should be legal in all 50 states? Vote for whoever supports that. And so on so forth. As for the people around you, yeah, you can affect local decisions easily. To affect federal decisions, however little, you need to vote.

[code gary]

Vortex said
Its all Obamas fault!

this was an ironic post but i wouldnt be surprised if you deep down hold this sentiment

any thread that has someone swinging around calling themself a conservative and pretending they can throw around a standard of logic and reason embeds the thread with a deep toxicity

[Dipper]

code gary said
this was an ironic post but i wouldnt be surprised if you deep down hold this sentiment any thread that has someone swinging around calling themself a conservative and pretending they can throw around a standard of logic and reason embeds the thread with a deep toxicity

Not surprised that you'd say something like that, CG. Don't Ad Hominem. The thread is supposed to be talking about how the US Government is Impersonating people, and yes, while it got derailed, the only person being toxic here is -you-.

"HUR DURR CODE GURU IS A LIBERAL SHEEP WHO THINKS CONSERVATIVES WHO THINK THE GOVERNMENT DOING ILLEGAL THINGS IS WRONG ARE ALL RACIST, AND SHE THINKS THAT BECAUSE OBAMA IS BLACK ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH HIM IS A TOXIC RACIST SCUM DURR HUR"

Look, I can do it too. Doesn't improve the thread, doesn't add anything. Don't do it.

[Vortex]

code gary said
this was an ironic post but i wouldnt be surprised if you deep down hold this sentiment any thread that has someone swinging around calling themself a conservative and pretending they can throw around a standard of logic and reason embeds the thread with a deep toxicity

Wait... What...? How does this... I dont even...

You haven't been around in OT for long or at least haven't seen my posts anyway. Mate, Im a Socialist for gods sake, in fact I'm a goddam Marxist and think Conservativism is something we have to get rid off ASAP. I suggest you look at my "Political Ideologies" thread (its in page 7) and better yet stop assuming you know my, or anyone else's Politics after reading a few posts.

Dipper said
Not surprised that you'd say something like that, CG. Don't Ad Hominem. The thread is supposed to be talking about how the US Government is Impersonating people, and yes, while it got derailed, the only person being toxic here is -you-."HUR DURR CODE GURU IS A LIBERAL SHEEP WHO THINKS CONSERVATIVES WHO THINK THE GOVERNMENT DOING ILLEGAL THINGS IS WRONG ARE ALL RACIST, AND SHE THINKS THAT BECAUSE OBAMA IS BLACK ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH HIM IS A TOXIC RACIST SCUM DURR HUR" Look, I can do it too. Doesn't improve the thread, doesn't add anything. Don't do it.

While I don't take any offence to it, I have to agree that Ad Hominems are pointless and just detracts from the good nitty gritty political arguments that we find ourselves yelling at each other over.

[So Boerd]

We could shut them down, or we could let them pretend they're in charge. The moral is, it's irrelevant.

All well and good until the men with guns from the IRS show up on my doorstep.

[mdk]

Rtron said
Fair enough. But you can vote for the person who you think will either support your views the most or you think will screw you over the least. You want more gun control? Vote for whoever supports that. You feel abortion should be legal in all 50 states? Vote for whoever supports that. And so on so forth. As for the people around you, yeah, you can affect local decisions easily. To affect federal decisions, however little, you need to vote.

Currently true. In a primal USA, the early constitution set it up so that you voted for your local reps, and *they* picked your senators. That was changed in the 17th amendment. Which is a mistake, because like you said, that isolates all your participation in DC to simply voting each November -- rather than being able to effect changes locally which will later impact federal representation.

[Primal Conundrum]

One more reason to stay up here in Canada!

[Dipper]

mdk said
Currently true. In a primal USA, the early constitution set it up so that you voted for your local reps, and *they* picked your senators. That was changed in the 17th amendment. Which is a mistake, because like you said, that isolates all your participation in DC to simply voting each November -- rather than being able to effect changes locally which will later impact federal representation.

It also keeps you from being able to replace Senators who have gone off the rails and began doing things they said they weren't going to, and opposing things they said they'd support.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Rtron said Not with something you can change. If I complain about something I could change or could try to change and I don't, then what am I complaining about? I obviously don't care enough about it to try and change it, so I must be pretty much fine with it as is. It's like walking into your trashy room and going 'I hate all this trash. Something needs to be done.' And then sitting there and doing nothing.

It's more like if you wanted to move your room upstairs and you're being told not to complain because you don't clean your room (an unrelated factor).
If someone see's issues with the voting system, they would in at least some sense be hypocritical by voting.

And also, if the issue is voting how are you supposed to change it by voting?
That honestly sounds more like "If you don't like the messy room, you should make it even more messy!".

code gary said this was an ironic post but i wouldn't be surprised if you deep down hold this sentiment any thread that has someone swinging around calling themself a conservative and pretending they can throw around a standard of logic and reason embeds the thread with a deep toxicity

OT is meant for actual arguments, not personal attacks.
There are other places on the site you can go to if you simply wish to attack a person's character, OT isn't one of them.