mdk

happy april fools day

You're too late, it's not april fools today.

April fools was yesterday.

@Arkaquiavel

Wait really, I missed it? Shit. I am really disappointed.

Ghost in the Shell was a good movie.

My plan was to contrast it against the 2015 reboot, more than the original source material.

On a sidenote, it is really amusing that this debate about copies being manufactured but possibly missing the soul of the original is centered around GiTS, of all things.

Ghost in the Shell was a good movie.

Well I'm going today. To prep myself I rewatched the original and the (2015 anime) reboot last night. I don't think I need to rewatch the series because at this point I've practically got both gigs memorized.

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

<Snipped quote by mdk> So yeh, I agree with the idea that a balance should exist, but I have doubts that a perfect balance can really be achieved, and I am afraid the push against the use of the term is going too far in the other direction.

@Vilageidiotx

I mean I'm assuming you don't mean "the push against the use of the term" to mean, like, ANY pushback. Because we certainly need SOME pushback. I'll concede that plenty of people are taking it way too far -- and if I sound defensive on that point, it's because in today's climate, even people who dare say "that's not that racist" are themselves declared racist. Which is goes into my first post in the thread, about this being a wretched choice of topic title -- simply by uttering the word 'race' in 2017, one has already stacked the deck. THAT'S the thing that needs to die. Not the subject of racism itself, but the automated gnashing of digital teeth that accompanies its discussion.

Clearly, I haven't figured out a way to slay that dragon yet, but when I come up with something I'll lead with that instead of boo-hooing for some shitty youtube 15-minutes-of-douchebaggery.

Well, let's be honest though ... They both said shit meant to make their own bases angry at the other side.

If we're being honest, they both seemed to say shit meant to make their opponent's base angry at themselves.

I'm not going to defend Hillary Clinton though. I don't want to have to do that.

This conversation gets way more fun for me if we talk about DNC chair candidates instead.

Oh dear...

Point well taken. I'm from New York so my experience is essentially the polar opposite of everything you said -- so I'm arbitrarily calling it a draw. A shitty, depressing draw.

I always thought the Christian bakery thing was kinda funny because selling cakes to gays isn't exactly a sin, biblically speaking. That being said, in this case we are talking about a backlash receiving a backlash, or else, an attempt to publicly stand against something receiving a public stand against it. Hell, even the bathroom bill is mostly just silly virtue signally (goddam that word). So some virtue signalling got virtue signaled against. That's politics in the 21st century.

Politics in the 21st century make me want to live in the dark ages.

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

It's only blaise if we consider these (racism not being taboo vs racism as an overused taboo) separate issues. I think it is a sliding scale, personally, where on one end (racism not being taboo) we have systematic violence, and on the other (racism as an overused taboo) we have stupid shit happening in public but being systematically contained. What I am afraid of is this fight currently taking place against the tabooification of racism is going to recreate systematic racism that right now is at least somewhat (though not completely) tamed.

@Vilageidiotx

I don't like this word 'taboo.' I'm not arguing that racism should become more okay -- I'm arguing that we oughta be a lot more critical of the use of the word (and its various derivatives). Which ties into my one-man crusade against the prefix "anti-" in political discourse, and my lesser-crusade against the "pro-" prefix. The only utility in these identity-based descriptives is divide-and-conquer exploitation of whatever issue.

Hopefully that clarification helps explain my stance, so that the following responses become more cogent:

A: Trump was elected. The race taboo didn't end his chances.

I was actually thinking of Sessions, tbh, but let's run with Trump. Hilary's entire campaign was -isms and -ogyny's and -igots and etc.'s. We don't have data to say exactly how many people bought into it, but the outright hysteria that has followed the election should be some indication. This language is dangerous and its irresponsible (and/or exploitative) use is reprehensible.

The basket of deplorables was, in my opinion, a tactical error.

Heh. Heh heh heh heh. Heh. Well that's one way of putting it. To the latter point, let's dispense with the fiction that Barrack Obama doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he's doing. But seriously -- the only issues I can think of (and I've been thinking so long that my brain turned into Marco Rubio) in which the right has 'shit on' democrat voters are homophobia and abortion. Trump ain't your GOP gay-basher, for damn sure, and the abortion shittery has been (at worst) a level shitting field, so I don't think it's really comparable. But then again for every "guns and religion" jab there's a "welfare queen" return-fire, so it might just be fair to say politics is a black hole of awfulness from which no light can escape, and move on.

Also, why is it now "Social bullying" to shop with your dollar, so to speak? I do not see the North Carolina situation as bullying at all and I think it is hyperbolic to suggest it.

I lifted that from here, NC bathroom bill was just the most quantifiable cost-analysis. Not a perfect fit, because like you said, boycott is pretty civil. The 'bullying' charge is coming from, like, you can't say anything that goes against the uberprogressive new-normal without severe backlash. Christian bakeries might've been a better example. There's a buzz-phrase in /r/T_D called "the tolerant left," so if you like I can pull up about a million other examples which are probably all better -- but again, harder to quantify than the revenue loss from NCAA ball in NC.

Ghost in the Shell was a good movie.

Please refrain from posting if you haven't seen it and only want to regurgitate the popular opinion you've heard.

@Awson

No.

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

It is true that taboos have been created in the past by evil regimes, but I don't think this means the creation of taboos are a slippery slope kind of thing. If a regime comes to power with a plan to commit systematic white genocide in a western country, not by the scary fear of pluralism thing white nationalists have, but by systematic violence, then I'll be proven wrong.

@Vilageidiotx

Setting the bar at "Systemic genocide" is pretty blaise. Consider: after seeing a headline "JonTron's Possibly Racist Views," are you (a) more likely or (b) less likely to watch JonTron's videos? If a candidate for office is accused of racism for 14 months, do you think that candidate is (a) more likely or (b) less likely to be elected, regardless of policy? If half the nation is thrown into a basket of deplorables, your racists, your homophobes, your misogynists, how likely is it that afterwards the two sides of the argument are going to be able to come together?

And yeah, we're talking about race in this thread because title, but this goes way beyond all that. North Carolina is losing hundreds of millions of dollars for the crime of having the same bathrooms as last year. Social bullying is the absolute norm. That's a very bad thing. The fact that it hasn't escalated to actual SYSTEMIC violence, only scattered POCKETS of violence, does not make that okay.

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

<Snipped quote by mdk>

I'd also contend that there is no such existence of positive outcomes that directly or indirectly stem from anti-thought taboos established for the purpose of hopefully extinguishing returns of prejudicial practices to modern life. Not only that, anti-thought taboos have a tendency throughout history to be at the center of some of the most violent, murderous regimes and political groups of all time.

@Dark Wind

I dunno about 'no such existence,' because I mean I do think for example that the workplace is more generally pleasant now that it's taboo to smack a woman's ass for no reason. It's not that benefits cannot be derived from dogmatic values -- it's just that there's a cost associated with those benefits, and the costs and benefits rarely exist in a state of equilibrium. Either it's obviously the right call, or it's really harmful. The issues we're juggling today (like, idunno, is your health insurance racist?) are generally really harmful, and we shouldn't be standing idly by while it happens.

edit: You totally did qualify that statement, so this is more strongly worded than it needs to be, but I'll just leave it anyway.

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

There are of course people who abuse it. Every moral imperative comes with that threat. The trade off for sifting through abusive uses of victimization is hopefully that we avoid full blown racial pogroms.

@Vilageidiotx

As I've said though, today in America, the weaponization of racism is the bigger and more serious threat. By far. What I'm arguing is that we've crossed a threshold -- we're not 'sifting through' the abuses to find the problems, we're so buried in abuses that we're simply dredging up something that looks almost real and pretending so that we can collectively exploit it. Systemically, and not just when it comes to race (though that's certainly the most prone to producing actual violence as an outcome). This is crazy stupid bad for us, as a population that live alongside one another, but we're doing it anyway because Drumpf I guess. (It's not Trump, it's virtue signalling, but that's another thread)

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

<Snipped quote by BrokenPromise>

I don't really consider myself black, but I wouldn't think you 'racist' for saying so.

@Buddha@mdk

I completely agree that there are a lot of professional victims who throw around words like racism and sexism too liberally, but it doesnt mean that they still arent real terms.

Racism is a real thing, its not a buzzword, or an emotional term, or just weaponised slang. Its a real adjective with real meaning. And its okay to call people racist if they are saying racist things, just because SJWs call everyone racist, it doesnt mean that calling someone racist makes you an SJW.

Also it doesnt have to have an agenda behind it, I can point out someones racism without wanting them to go to jail or lose their job. Maybe its because I want that person to reconsider their views, it doesnt have to be used maliciously.

Again this isn't really about jon tron, he seems to have some strange ideas about race that lean towards racism, but I'm not convinced hes an outright racist, I think hes just sipped some alt right kool-aid and hasnt had enough time to spit it up.

I don't think (and I don't think anyone here thinks) racism is bad because wahhh my feelings *sob* I think racism is bad because its ignorant and doesn't hold up to hard reasoning. Assigning flaky attributes to something that doesn't scientifically exist is just illogical, if youre all about 'facts not feelings' then you should be with me on this.

@Dynamo Frokane

I'm sorry but you're exactly wrong. Let's highlight this arbitrary segment for emphasis: he seems to have some strange ideas about race that lean towards racism, but I'm not convinced hes an outright racist, I think hes just sipped some alt right kool-aid and hasnt had enough time to spit it up.

What you're doing here has nothing to do with 'facts not feelings' or scientifical existence or whatever else you decided to call it -- you're determining whether or not a person (or series of statements) warrants thought, based on whether or not he/they pass the 'racist' test. It is specifically and exactly an anti-thought experiment, and it's what the weaponization of racism has produced, and it's why I'm not with you (or anyone else who's doing it) on this. To be clear, I'm not blaming you for (not?) thinking along these lines -- it's not your fault, you didn't create this problem. The problem is really, really, really, really real though, and it's waaaaaaaaaay bigger than some SJWs on twitter.