Innue

Arena Chat Thread

Ok. So you are dealing with the player not the character. If a player is a dickhead, no matter what they use; magic, guns, or galaxies they will be a dickhead getting in the perfect hit, the never miss and the always on target shots. If you are fighting T1 there really is no inherent problems with gunfighters.

@Skallagrim

Forgive me for not believing balance should be derived from this. Bullets move too fast at tiers they are allowed to exist that they aren't ACTUALLY manageable.

Yes, if you are fighting T1 there are the inherent problems with guns which I've discussed ad nauseum. It is STILL dependent on the level of power being permitted.

Arena Chat Thread

Innue, have you been in a firefight? You know that is not true. Moving to hit a target is much harder then hitting a stationary target. A moving target requires you to move as well, to try and keep a shot lined up. If cover is involved and they make it to cover you now need to work twice as hard to get the shot as they ain't gonna sit still.

@Skallagrim

No, but I've shot enough at moving targets. Math also supports my statement.

Of course it is harder to hit a moving target, but given the incredible aim roleplaying characters have it is entirely irrelevant. You are essentially requiring enough cover in order to balance the weapon and cover close enough to a person that they can reach it before they are shot. Throw in the extra items to force people out of cover that many have, the weapon becomes a problem.

Arena Chat Thread

<Snipped quote by Skallagrim>

I think the problem is how easy it is to be assured that your opponent can't do anything to avoid the attack, provided your working with real physics and what-not (which I suppose most fights tend to let slide for the rule of cool and all that.) which essentially means you've scored the next best thing after a force hit.

There aren't many circumstances where I could imagine any of my characters up to mid tier being able to escape the path of a bullet, and any of the fleshy ones are almost certain to take debilitating damage. Although I never would try and dodge a bullet, I tend to interrupt and make my dodge the moment my character sees a gun pointed at them, which sets the reaction/reflex speed limitation against my opponent as well.

@MelonHead

Going off of this, a lot of my issue goes with the follow up. While it is true as Melon said that you can react to the weapon being pointed at you, the subsequent adjustments of the weapon make that less viable as an option since they are much smaller movements and the effort to continue to avoid the weapon is far more significant than the required adjustments to the aim.

Arena Chat Thread

personally, I would either not fight them, or treat them like magic.

As Skally said, we have no issue avoiding lightning bolts, or any other form of magic, so why should bullets be any different. Sure, real world rules apply and all, but at some point we'd have to address why I can shoot magic bolts of electricity from my fingers.

in other words, dodge it like you would anything else. You see a person aiming a fire staff at you, you run and dodge, and generally try and stay out of the fire thats surely coming. Do that with a gun. If they aren't prepped/adequately aimed, chances are they aren't gonna be accurate(unless its anime, or something, where you can lazily point and shoot), I believe the general term is 'firing from the hip', which isn't wholly accurate anyway.

another is 'spray and pray'

Sure, my idea may cause some issues as it seems like I'm slowing down the speed of the bullets, but I do that with magic anyway. Actually, of late, Frokane is the only one who hasn't tried to dodge something that, in the real world, would be virtually impossible to dodge(See: Kusanagi).

So yeah, dodge is like you do magic, or toss up that fancy shield, raise that solidly packed dirt. Howver you would dodge in a magic fire fight, do it with guns; unless the fight is strictly real world based.

want an example? Try and remember Gunfight For No Reason. No way those were supposed to last past the first one or two posts.

@Rilla

The fire isn't typically moving at a speed that it is actually undodgeable.

We can also address how you can do that if you wish to apply real world behavior to it.

Arena Chat Thread

To be fair, something I don't think I've seen anyone ever take into account is recoil, which would effectively limit you to a short burst of accurate fire as Skallagrim said, before you couldn't logically be firing with the same accuracy.

The issue is with the fact that the gun-user has control over if their shots are accurate or not, and with the travel speed and general short preparation time of guns, its almost the equivalent of a force hit at very low tiers, just because it is so much faster than most characters can react.

To sum it up in a nut shell, the reason why guns seem unfair can be explained by a historical example. If you gave me a pistol and set me up against a samurai who had trained his entire life with the katana, and set us about twenty feet apart, I'd still probably kick his ass 9 times out of 10 with my lack of experience or training or skill or anything remotely resembling talent, just by merit of my gun. Melee characters have such an inherent disadvantage against anything other than a single shot weapon (provided it has the capacity to quickly kill them, which it usually does.) that it throws a spanner in the tier system.

The point Tuuj that you keep making about reflex speeds of biological creatures is somewhat pointless though, as magic can easily allow you to circumnavigate those restrictions.

@MelonHead

Well put.

Although, reflex speeds from Tuuj are a valid point. You not only have to process the action, but you'd have to actually move it. Being able to process it is one thing. Being able to move fast enough (via magic/special ability) to deal with it is another and that would likely classify you in a different tier of power.

Arena Chat Thread

I'm not going to debate you on the points of science because it is your scientific interpretation of the observable consequences of these theories to make magic work except for the guns. Military/Law enforcement and civilian M4/Ar-15 (the most common rifle in America) have a selector switch; single shot or three-round burst. While you personally feel it is awkward as a restriction, the military and law enforcement as well as the gun manufacturers do not find it in any way limiting.

The best option is never fight anyone with a gun. Simple as that. If you personally feel it is unfair and somehow more unbalanced than a character that can manipulate unseen energies to make magic work, or have characters that can move at incredible speeds or any of the other events that characters seemingly can do in these role-plays, that's fine. That is your option.

@Skallagrim

And it is an option I exercise liberally. I've also expressed my opinions on super speed on more than one occasion.

For the science, it isn't really just my interpretation of things.

You cannot equate standards set by an organization for safety with restrictions for balance in text combat - especially with your chosen one when it is merely an choice. Who would use such a restriction in text combat when they are actively trying to win? It also restricts a playstyle without addressing the actual problem at the tiers of combat that guns often can appear at. As I stated before, you do have higher levels of power where such a weapon is a non-issue.

what do you feel are the underlying issues of firearms?

@Rilla

A lot of what Tuuj said.

If you look at the end goal of firing a projectile that can yield a particular amount of damage, the guns provide exceptionally less effort and people are generally more willing to let them behave without restrictions like you could easily incorporate into a spell to make it balanced. Bullets move faster than many people are willing to let magic spells, while still requiring some kind of more complex preparation (incantation).

They just move too fast and require little effort AND continue to persist at a tier of power where most of the abilities of others cannot compete.

Arena Chat Thread

Well no one in a text game is applying any logic to dodging a lightning bolt, or dodging a wind attack that can cut through armor. If you want the 'logic' of damage all magical fire, ice, lightning et al must then find a real world correlation. Everyone wants to limit a gun but doing so we must then state the imaginary non-science based attacks must be equally bound.

@Skallagrim

Magic has the benefit of being able to be restricted appropriately by altering the behavior of the spell.

Restricting weapons appropriately is inherently more difficult given what they are based off of.

<Snipped quote by Rilla>

Rilla, magic and technology are opposites. Magic bends physical law to the will of the mage. Technology depends on physical law. In the arena the use of technology reinforces physical law, countering the effect of magic.

A magic using individual casting an offensive spell works by summoning some form of fire/ lightning bolt / ice/ acid etc. out of thin air (physically impossible!), and then accelerating that flame/ lightning bolt/ ice shard/ acid spray to high speed along a finely controlled trajectory, merely by force of will (also physically impossible). In contrast, a gun takes advantage of several physical laws to achieve the same ends.

If we accept the possibility of magic in textual combat then the reality of firearms does not become anything other than another form of attacking your opponent. Bullets do not automatically kill your opponent; they do not automatically penetrate armor any more than a spell does. Like all T1 attacks prepping is required to do substantial damage. With firearms it is more difficult to attain the ‘preps” because you cannot continually aim at the target.

Prepping is achieved easily with ‘powered’ weapons such as lasers and particle-beam guns by simply stating that the character is powering the weapon up. With gunpowder weapons it is more difficult. I have in the past used the word focused, focusing, focus on etc. to build up ‘preps’. This allows for cues that the opponent may see as the gunfighter is targeting them. These cues are no different than prepping a spell with the descriptors congruent with the magic the caster is employing.

Other than that gunfighters and spell casters are very similar, both require preps to establish the power to break through their opponents prepped defenses. As for bullets, guns fire a maximum of three bullets per attack and guns do run out of ammo, after ‘X’ number of attacks.

@Skallagrim

Not that I want to debate semantics.

Actually it isn't physically impossible for those things to be created out of thin air. It is currently a scientific stretch utilizing Einstien's E=mc2, but if you delve into various theories in quantum mechanics you would have other alternatives to creating a method for accomplishing these things. The same would apply to movement. The stretch would be in the potency of the energy.

For the prep on a gunpowder firearm you also run into issues. In less powered combat you would be forced to outright limit basic movement capabilities of a standard human in order to create any form of equatable preparation between magic and guns. A gun, once aimed, required significantly less effort to fire a second shot than it does to create an entirely new spell with the added benefit of being able to easily adjust. Even seeing someone aim at you with a weapon, in a properly, reasonably constructed post, is still inadequate in almost all instances in terms of providing counterplay.

The limiting of number of rounds per attack is interesting, but personally I feel it feels awkward as a restriction. It restricts playstyle without addressing what I feel are the underlying problems with most firearms.

Devil's Storm

I posted something to get people started. I would advise trying to form into groups to strategize a way to get to the center of the town.

Devil's Storm

The Town

Those by train would find it screeching to a halt well outside the station. Despite the heavy armor, there was a good reason they didn't take it any closer than a few miles outside the town; the demons would swarm the train as it pulled in, knock it over, and slowly, but surely, penetrate the armor as they clawed towards those on board. The conductor woulld give his call for them to be let off and then back the train away from the small town.

The town itself would be found in utter chaos. Many of the buildings had caught fire, either from the demonic firespitters, or those trying to take a few with them, leaving nothing but ashes and the charred bones of those buildings that had manage to resist just long enough to create the haunting evening shadows.

The demons would not leave such a haven. There were always scraps that were missed. Many would move around the town, drawn by the crystal that had brought them there in the first place. The main horde, of course, was gone, but the tower, reminiscent of a broadcast tower, would, of course, have a number of demons clasping to its sturdy metal structure, cackling away, many gnawing on bones with small remnants of flesh. By virtue of the behavior, there was an almost ceremonial pile of bones at the base of the tower - at least the remains of forty people including the remains of the very young.

There was clearly one demon at the base of the tower that had established itself as the alpha. It was larger, clearly more intelligent than the others. It was a Juggernaut, or at least that was the general term. They were hardier than the common Ravagers, the smaller ones with sleek black claws. The Juggernaut was an impressive 12 feet in height and had taken on pieces of metal in a makeshift armor. Like most, it was capable of grasping and wielding items with surprising dexterity, having taken up a blood soaked piece of metal it had fashioned into a crude, yet effective blade with intentional serrations across its edge - making it more of a saw than anything.

At least thirty-five ravagers had taken position across the tops of the buildings around the tower, most basking in the evening sun, much like cats. Many more lurked further out, daring not to approach the Juggernaut's territory without his approval, which they had not gotten.

Devil's Storm

So... This thing still alive?

@Araby264

Yes. I did state it wouldn't move super fast. I have my own business so I work a lot, and strange, hours.