mdk

The Twelve Labours: General Discussion

mdk reply

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@PlatinumSkink

response to response to response

On the character-thoughts thing -- I figured that was probably the case, but that made such a good example.......... anyway the trick is making sure the reader's got zero doubts, and there are many ways to skin that cat. Italics are nice and easy, for example -- or alternatively, just omit those thoughts entirely (what are they really adding?), or write up a character action that implies those thoughts. Maybe Aaron blinks and looks around then shrugs and walks inside?

But nevermind the one example, and don't sweat the whole idea too much -- it's just another tiny thing to keep in mind when you keep writing is all.

Act One

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response to response

In order of simple answer to complicated:

1. Anyang is not Besk, he's an Arrested Development reference, lol... The message from Bunsen is supposed to be a joke/complaint about his boss.

2. The reason I hated the 'exposition scene' so much is, it really broke up the pace. You're right -- that scene has to happen, you HAVE to get all those impressions about Bunsen being remarkably competent and diligent and all that -- but he doesn't have to magically know everything, and he certainly doesn't have to preclude all the future investigations by just 'figuring it all out' in act one. Of course.... well he's not right about EVERYTHING, so stay tuned, but still. Anyway pacing is what really upsets me about it, personally -- I got done with it and I knew "man that's going to speed me right past a whole lot of character development" and I just stayed mad at it for the rest of the story, but I didn't have the time to go back and change anything -- hence all the references to how much I hated it. OH -- and the super-soldier aspect. That, I think, really needs to slow down. I want you wondering how the hell she managed to beat up those guys for a LOT longer.

3. Making Abyss make sense was part of the effort. To really bring it together, I'd want to get some of that super-sophisticated Abyss styling into the bigger story -- only some, but still, they really read like two completely unrelated pieces with similar villains. Also though -- this is only act one. I think Bunsen stole something from future installments by explaining the entire operation, and he's in trouble for that.

4. Comedy! When I went back and re-read it, there was a lot more comedy in the story than I remembered. It probably needs that. Brain-damaged rape victim therapy is a pretty dark subject and this thing NEEDED some laughs to keep it going. Glad the jokes are landing, and hey, you finished -- so it must've been enough for now anyway.

5. THE LABOR PART -- okay, so here's where it gets convoluted. Everybody is lying to everybody. Everybody is using everybody. They're all tools, and they all get hurt. The 'big one' is still Leon (crime chief) literally controlling Taina and making her a witless pawn -- puts her in this whole situation, she hurts all her friends and herself, and she can't do anything to him because he's dead. At the same time, Taina is using Tony, and Tony is using her, in their respective revenge plots. Doesn't work out super well for either of them, and they hurt Maggie and Al. Speaking of -- Al's using Taina to build his company, and it's all for the best of reasons, but in a way he's still kind of a dick -- ESPECIALLY at the end, when (and I'm not sure at all if this was clear enough) he shuts down her dream/memories before waking her up in their final scene. Which leaves Maggie -- who's basically innocent of all that deception crap, I guess, but I hate her the most lol. If you follow her carefully, she's super weak, she changes her mind all the time, and she's -- for a smart person -- pretty out-of-touch and dumb. She's good at that caring-hospital-nurse-ish sort of role, but once you take her outside that, she sucks at everything. So I beat her up a lot. She's betrayed by pretty much everyone and physically hurt, and if I get to keep going on this, you'll probably hear more about how she sucks in the future, because she's really not the kind of person that does well. Which is a shame, because she's got nothing BUT good will towards others.

SO ANYWAY somewhere in that web of lies, I think, are two or three labor-clearing manipulations. I hope. Man I really want this to win, lol.....

BUT! Thank you so much for suffering through that idunno let's just call it a Bible. That length was uncalled for, and I'm genuinely sorry for taking up so much of your reading/reviewing time -- I was pretty worried that it's going to damage the reviews for other entries, though for now at least it's working out for everyone. Glad you liked it. The best part of finishing Act One is, I mean.... this universe is finally ready for space cowboys. Dunno what's ahead, labor-wise, but believe that if an opportunity arises, we'll have us some zero-G gunslinging before too long oh who am I kidding it's entirely too long.....

Best rap lines ever.

I recently just bought the full Border Trilogy. Had to say that cus' I notice your McCarthy quote down there, and I'm so excited to read it. I've only read The Road (loved it) and I have Blood Meridian, No Country For Old Men, and now The Border Trilogy sitting around waiting for me to finish some other books first before I give them the time they deserve. Really, really hoping they're absolutely excellent lol.

@Dark Wind

Doing a full McCarthy read-through. I'm halfway through the Crossing. ATPH was great and all, just different from what he usually writes. If you want the full Cormac experience, I think you want either Blood Meridian or Suttree. Suttree is South-McCarthy, Blood Meridian is West-McCarthy. Border Trilogy is where he switched from South to West....... anyway read 'em. Bonus points if you beat me to the finale.

I got a dream girl in my mind, that's the hook,
An intellectual sexual, who still can cook.

((also I like the thread better this way. From now on all your rap music must be accompanied by high literature))

Best rap lines ever.

Nothing special, post good raps.

ALL RAP MUSIC MUST BE ACCOMPANIED BY ADVANCED LITERATURE DISCUSSION

I got swindled and spun like a windmill every hour --
that is to say she blew me, so I turned around and gave her power.

Saying something right out of a song

I'mma git git git git you drunk. Git you lovedrunk off my hump. My hump my hump -- My hump my hump my hump. My hump my hump my hump -- my lovely little lumps.

What Is The Worst Movie?

Of course the actual answer is Plan 9 from Outer Space. And conveniently it's available free on youtube:

What Is The Worst Movie?

This is my easy winner. If you ever need a laugh, rent this movie and think about how Uwe Boll spent $60 million on it.

The Twelve Labours: General Discussion

Stars aligned and I got a chance to knock these out much earlier than I expected. REVIEWS FOR ALL!

pawn takes king

Love the style – you did a great job of complimenting the dark theme with tone and sentence structure. Imagery was, for the most part, spot-on (although there were spots here and there that I didn’t like – more on that later) – the grander scheme, the ethereal chess game of bones and death – I mean come on, that’s awesome. Descriptions of the moves left a little to be desired in terms of, like, a reader understanding what’s going on in the game – but the chess moves were never really the point, and not knowing precisely where every rook and bishop has landed on the board doesn’t take anything away from the story. The ‘rudimentary backbone of chess’ is actually a really clever thematic…. Uh…. thing, but you sorta glossed over it and didn’t play up the extra skeleton imagery, so it almost seems like a coincidence. That’s fine – when you’re writing well, the coincidental stuff tends to work out in your favor without you even really thinking about it. You were, and it did. Consider sticking to the skeleton image – instead of the bishop sneaking around to ‘strike at the heart of the formation,’ maybe the bishop strikes at its spine instead? Dunno. Stuff like that though – the point is you created a good image that fits in with the other story elements, and you could do a little more with it I guess but the point is that it was good.

Couple negative points jumped out. I can’t tell if they jumped out because of how much I liked the rest, or because of how jump-out-ish they were – just gonna list them off and let you be the judge. First, verb tense throughout feels a bit off. “A white tube being thrusted” hit me right away, and there’s some more awkward tense choices. Participles? Present participle I think? ANYWAY IT’S WEIRD, and weird is cool when it’s helping but I don’t think it’s helping. You also slip back and forth between past and present, which, again, cool if it’s happening for a reason but it just looks like a slip from here. Broadly speaking, the verb tense is a weak point – don’t think so much about how to FIX it, rather, think about what you want to do with it. I think that’s the level you’re at. A good level.

Next – this is a game of chess between death and a (victim?). That’s a fantastically interesting scenario. Maybe – only maybe – you should let that cat out of the bag earlier in the story. I get the sense that you knew all along this was a battle against literally Death, and maybe sorta overlooked the part where you bring the readers up to speed. COULD BE, you were holding the cards close to the chest deliberately, but the trouble with that is, when it’s finally spelled out, there isn’t a whole lot of payoff for the reader. I wasn’t held in suspense, wondering who was playing or for what – okay, maybe a little bit wondering those things, but not….. you see what I mean right? I’m gonna overstate it just to make the point, don’t hate me, but it’s almost like someone telling a joke and getting close to the punchline and then mentioning “oh by the way the horse is blue, that’s important, it’s a blue horse.” The timing of the revelation gives it the effect you want. In this case, I don’t see any reason why the revelation shouldn’t come right up in front. Could be wrong about that….. think on it.

I promised to mention weird imagery because on THAT account, it definitely only jumped out because of how strong the rest was. Okay. In a supernatural cosmic “danse macabre” with Death on a smoke-covered bone chessboard with dozens of human souls hanging in the balance, cheesy fries are kind of weird. Right? That’s…. does that sound out of place to anybody else? And again, weird, out-of-place stuff is fine if you’re doing something with it. I didn’t get that sense here. The accountant’s death sequence felt like a glaring break from your style in the rest of the story, and it didn’t, like…. If they sat and remarked about how random and merciless death could come for anyone (you did a LITTLE, and repeated it with the ‘accident’ overtones with the ex’s death, but didn’t really follow through all the way)….. well. I guess what I’m trying to say is, if cheesy fries are going to enter into a story like this, you wanna make damn sure you justify it completely! Cheesy fries. Okay, I’ve harped on that en….. CHEESY FRIES! Enough! Enough. I’m done.

So I spent a longer time complaining than I meant to. That always means I liked it. Always. I think you did this story near-complete justice with style and pacing and tone. A teensie bit sloppy in terms of….. well I hate the word ‘grammar’ in this context, but just syntax and structure in general, not quite firing on ALL cylinders, but you’re certainly firing on most of them. It’s a bit more plot-heavy than character-heavy – nevertheless your crafty lovestruck human still comes across as sort of twistedly-romantic and dark, and I think you really nailed him. All in all, I mean, I feel really good about you. This story is good stuff, in a way that totally means you’re a good writer.

the song

@wisedragongirl
YES YES YES IT’S THE ODE TO KING HAN! YES! And the crypts!

Ahem.

Alright. Throwbacks aside, this is a neat little deception. It’s essentially straight-to-the-point, no beating around the bush – all evidence says I could use a little work on that front – and it wraps up in a bow without wasting any time. In other words, brilliant pacing. Characters were strong – maybe a little abrupt, but appropriate for the story.

The conflict, though….. hmmm, how to say this. It’s almost more like a summary of a conflict, than a conflict. Lemitsa screws Anthony over, Anthony gets mad, Anthony loses, straight to the aftermath. Which again – this story moved fast, you’re not wrong to move that whole affair right along and get back to Mikhal. That worked, because Lemitsa being a cold bastard is sort of the whole appeal, or a big part of the appeal anyway. I think part of the reason it works is that you’re drawing on established settings, so the stage is already set – but still it’s moving quickly enough that it’s not, you know, 100% awesome. It’s all over just as quick as it’s begun.

I feel like I’m running out of things to talk about, and maybe THAT’S something to talk about – it’s a bit threadbare, isn’t it? You didn’t do much in the telling of the story. We got to the point, we met the jerk, he did some things… It’s not thematically deep, it’s not full of any particular tone (that might be because I just finished Pawn takes King)…. Sort of just a “this happened” sort of story. Paced well, handled well, written well, but still. The deception and the damage were readily apparent, which should make it easy to tell if it clears the labor, and I’m not 100% sure – but I’ve been wrong like every time I try to guess, so I’ll make no such effort here, lol. Anyway it was an easy read and nicely done. Some solid strong points in a story without much room for strong points – TLDR pacing and characters good, detail and nuance didn’t really get a chance to play, but that’s life.

just take a stroll

@platinumskink

I swear, you are having more fun than a human being should be allowed to have.

This is *cough cough* almost the longest entry in the group. It’s the longest one of yours I can remember off the top of my head. To be clear – length is not strength. Just being longer doesn’t make something better. That said…. Dude, the length was perfect, says this casual reader. The complex-ridiculous-ness of a genius slime colony worshipping the mighty god Adidas, the heartache after catastrophe….. wait do Ghinites have hearts? The simple-organ-ache after a catastrophe. Vows of tiny revenge. I mean come on. It’s brilliant. It’s possibly certifiably insane – but it’s brilliant.

If it weren’t so brilliant, there’s a lot of things I would complain about. Like, jumping from a lab room straight into an alien landscape was jarring and made me wonder all sorts of things – has @platinumskink finally lost it, for one? And lots of variations on that, but also some ‘uh what’s this doing here’ and ‘what the hell is supposed to be going on’ and ‘what’s a ghinite’ and ‘is that Adidas like the shoe or a plural of an adida or what?’ It turns out, though, that these were all the right questions. It wasn’t random at all – it was structured and paced and okay, maybe the structure was made of see-through goop and it was really weird, but jesus it was perfect. I mean bloody perfect. At every turn.

Alright. So story wise, I’ve got nothing to whine about. Surely I can poke holes in character development, right? Well….. KIND OF. I mean, Doctor Hogan is a fun villain, always a little creepy and blossoms into a genuine hateable guy. Aaron doesn’t get it, and I don’t like him because he never gets it, and at the end he’s like oh, I think I get it, I’ll be cool….. but that’s not really a weak point because, I mean, how in the hell would he have gotten it? So he actually rings pretty true – a little on the simple side, maybe, but nothing wrong with that. The Ghinite characters are one-dimensional I guess, but….. I mean….. they practically ARE one-dimensional, so come on. So if I was going to poke holes, the hole I’d try to poke is “There isn’t a whole lot of character development – any, maybe.” But there doesn’t need to be. Here. Other stories, less crazy stories, you’ll need that – but not here, honestly.

Writing-wise – I had my eye open, desperate for anything I could complain about. I remember spotting only two things. Well, three – one of them was the food-god Adidas, but that turned out to be awesome. First – when describing the Ghinites, you said something along the lines of ‘this would look creepy to a human.’ Don’t say that! Just describe it in a way that’s creepy to humans. On the one hand, showing is better than telling – but on a more (less?) practical level, Ghinites have no concept of how they might seem to humans, so that doesn’t make sense. Yes – in a story about cancer-curing slime creatures, I’m complaining about a description making sense. Deal with it. Second, there’s still that running tendency of yours to just leave thoughts from the narrator as things go along. I’m growing accustomed to it, it doesn’t necessarily bother me as much – but it’s still kinda sloppy to actually write out “Eh, suppose there’s nothing else to it, then?” Sounds like you ran out of things to say and wrote down the part where you ran out of things to say, and only then went on writing. Eh…… well I guess that’s it then, on to the conclusion.

I’m allowed to do that. I’m critiquing. You’re telling a story!

Bah. Well the point of saying ‘I only found two things to hate’ was that, look, there wasn’t much to hate in this entry. I mean core concept, if a person doesn’t like what you’re doing, you’re not gonna win them over – but damn it, you’re writing like you and it really feels like it’s….. uh…… gelling. So stick with that. And can I remark, too, that there are some objectively fantastic parts strewn about in this story – I’ll highlight one that I really liked.

any other Ghinite could easily recognize one another by the taste of the matter each was subconsciously giving off. And Akheria's in particular, was easily recognizable for being quite bitter.

Brilliant.

Okay. Okay. Moral is…… damn good job. I don’t know what to call this genre but you’re all over it like a pig in mud. It suits you exactly, and you suit it, and it’s…… it’s awesome.

the silver bullet

@Holmishire

This was down to the deadline-wire, wasn’t it? See you built up a great backdrop for the werewolf story – excellent characters, excellent setting, excellent tone – and then sorta cashed it all in at once, because, I mean…. You HAD to, I imagine. It’s a shame. I’m really interested in the intrigue between these people, in, you know, what happens to this place. Because at the end of the day it’s not a story about a monster, it’s a story about PEOPLE, that’s the whole point of the werewolf – they’re human. Ulfarr is human. I didn’t get to see enough of him to really be satisfied.

But that’s very different from saying ‘it’s not good.’ It’s EXTREMELY good. The pace you set at the beginning? FLAWLESS. Carried on as we met the village and learned about the location a little more, about the personal conflicts and the human elements surrounding everything, and then like….. man, it’s a shame. I imagine you’re right there too – all I’m saying is I’m there with you. Tons of potential here that just couldn’t be tapped in time. Would love to see it.

Standing as it is, the story’s still plenty strong. Some of the significance is lost because of the compressed conclusion… I love what you did with language, I love the characters obviously, and just in general it really feels like everything you set out to do was perfect – and you totally would’ve been able to follow through on the potential, too, of that I’m certain. It really is just great stuff all around, cut short but not really diminished. Nature of the beast I guess. Still, I’ll give it the highest compliment I ever give – I care about these people and I want to know what happens next (slash, in the interim, since you had to sort of ‘jump the gun’ and hit that ending tragedy).

platinum

how you say....

The Twelve Labours: General Discussion

*facepalm*

Yep. Forgot to sign again. "Act One" is me.

The Twelve Labours: General Discussion

@mdk I usually don't critique TTL entries, but maybe I'll make an exception for you. ;3 (I guess that makes me bad.)

@Holmishire

lol seriously though, review other people before even looking at my thing. For real. It'll be a better use of everybody's time, not the least of which being yours.

The Twelve Labours: General Discussion

<Snipped quote by mdk>

I may not be entering this one (unless I get a surprise in thanks to motivation) but... I'll be the judge of that (well, Terminal will be but you know what I mean).

I'll also leave the verbal termination to Terminal, he be good like that.

@Dark Wind

Sweet!

Do critique everything -- that goes for anyone who makes it through my thing, or doesn't, lord knows if you have to skip one thing, you should skip mine. Feedback is vital for all the things though. I'm probably not going to get any reviews in until late, because I'm in Orlando for the next several days (thus the rush), but I'll get to them.... in the meantime, anybody who critiques my gigantic thing without leaving some thoughts for the other writers first is bad and should feel bad! Or whatever. You know what I mean. Share the love, rainbows, etc.